Best minivan for 3 kids in carseats?

We have a 3 year old son and are expecting twins in November. We have been told by everyone that we now ''need a minivan''. We know that we don't want an SUV (mostly because of the safety risks) --is there any good, roomy alternative for three kids and various equipment (folded up double stroller in the trunk/back etc.)? We would also like to get people's opinions of the most reliable and practical minivans (both new and used). Are those fold-down seats as helpful as they seem? Which ones fold most easily or does it not really matter? Which drives the best? Any advice on how to compare or how to anticipate what our needs will be with a preschooler and two infants in a car would be helpful.
Driven To This

Used minivan; honda or toyota?

We are considering entering the ranks of minivan driving families. We will buy a used one. Does anyone have any feelings about what would be better a used Toyota Sienna or used Honda Odyssey? thanks, Elyse

Which Minivan?

Well, we finally decided that we'll give up the 13-year-old station wagon and buy a minivan. We're trying to decide between the Toyota Sienna (reliable, solid, dull) and the Honda Odyssey (fun, great features, really *too* big in a lot of ways). We also thought about the Mazda MPV but didn't care for it when we drove it. If you have bought a Sienna or an Odyssey, or have gone through the same decision making process, would you be willing to share your thoughts? We are at a standstill because we think we could spend less on a Toyota ... but maybe there's a good reason EVERYONE seems to want the Honda!!! Thanks for your recommendations. - seeking family transportation

My advice re: purchasing an Odyssey is to get on the phone and contact dealers out of the area. Visit local dealers to decide what model, color and features you want, then call around to get the best deal. We found Autobytel and other web resources to be not at all competitive. The California Auto Club has a ''no negotiations/best price'' arrangement with many dealers in Northern California (similar to the Costco program) and they can give you a list of those over the phone. We spoke to a few of these dealers and ultimately did better than the ''best price'' initially quoted (which varies from dealer to dealer). The most effective way to negotiate by phone is to know exactly what you want and when you want it: ''I want an LX in Green with leather and I need it by this date.'' None of the dealers have them sitting around on the lot but they know exactly what they have coming in within 30 - 60 days. After making a few calls we found what we wanted and authorized a credit card deposit to ''hold'' the vehicle even though it had not even arrived at the dealer (Note: these deposits are generally refundable). Then our phone started to ring and sure enough, two other dealers had the model we wanted too. Then we played one off the other to get ''down'' to MSRP. You can definitely get an Odyssey without paying a premium over the sticker price, and with the new model year approaching, who knows? you might even do better than that. We bought ours from AutoWest Honda in Roseville (outside Sac'to.) because they had the color we wanted. But we also had good experience dealing with the Honda dealer in Tracy, Steve Hopkins Honda in Fairfield and Mistlin Honda in Modesto. Good luck! jennifer

We bought the Odyssey in the first model year, which may be some of the problem. The ignition recall applies to '99 and '00 vehicles. The other main problem we've had was with the automatic sliding doors. This may have been fixed with newer vans. Our sliding doors were repaired after about two years. They replaced some parts with those used in the newer vans, and the dealer said they were more reliable.

We had all of this work done at Doten Honda in Berkeley. They did a good job of working my Odyssey into a busy schedule and went to bat for me with Honda -- they got Honda to provide the transmission parts at no charge even though the van was out of warranty. I had to pay the labor. Of course, Honda covered everything for the safety recall, including my rental car.

I love being able to carry six people and luggage comfortably in the van. Also, I use the fold-down rear seat a lot. It's easy, and the resulting cargo space is large and pretty much free of protruding hardware. In town, mileage is worse than I expected (18mpg or less), but on the road it's better (25mpg). Ricki

We are starting to shop for a minivan or station wagon (considering both new and used) and would appreciate advice from current owners. What do you like/dislike about your minivan or station wagon? We are particularly concerned with reliability (i.e. repairs); ease of getting kids, adults, and cargo in and out; handling (hills, snow, wind); and safety. Also, does anyone know where one can get more info on auto consumer satisfaction, safety, etc. on the internet? Thanks very much.

Of the two you mention, the Honda Odyssey is rated #1 by Car and Driver and, judging from the buyer satisfaction and loyalty of Honda owners, is probably the better buy. I found the Toyota to be overpriced and underpowered, not to mention the "we're doing you a big favor" attitude of the dealers. Don't forget to look at the Pontiac Montana, it handles very well and was #1 until the new Honda came out. It has some nifty features, drives well, and costs a bit less.

Check out www.edmunds.com for great, seemingly objective info about cars and vans. We have bought two cars through their auto-by-tel program (you send an e-mail about what kind you want and they send you a dealer with/in 48 hours). For both of our deals, they offered invoice plus a few hundred dollars (as opposed to manufacturers recommended price plus, which is at least $2000 more). On the first car we saved over $4000 from sticker; on the second a bit less. We also used the offer on the first to go into a different dealer closer to home and bargain. Good luck.

I just went through the search for minivans and found some websites to be very helpful. For most car companies, it's "www.[car company]. com" e.g., www.toyota.com. I also looked at the National Highway Safety Transportation website for safety ratings (Toyota Sienna was #1, Ford Windstar #2, but Honda is coming out with a new 6 cylinder that sounds promising from it's literature). You can also get info for new and used vehicles from www.autoweb.com, www.autobytel.com, and (I think) www.edmunds.com -- there are others but I don't remember their websites off-hand.

(BTW, I tried to get price quotes from these websites, and although my husband had much luck when he used them for a friend a couple of years ago, I found that I got a better deal when I went into the dealerships)

I have $.015 to contribute to the mini-van discussion. Last time I looked, it seemed to me that the back seat windows of the Honda Oddessey actually opened like regular windows, whereas the other mini-vans' (including I think the Sienna), back-seat windows either don't open at all, or have those pop-out windows that don't actually let any air in. As I decide which minivan to dream about, I think I would want the one with the real windows. Otherwise, I'd be running the air conditioning all the time, which I hate. But maybe you have reasons, e.g. security, for preferring windows that don't open.

Someone wrote that she dreams of the mini-van with the back window that opens. It is my undrestanding that the back window when opened allows exhaust into the back of the car and that is bad for the occupants

We are also in the market, having become completely exasperated with the umpteenth expensive repair of our Mercury Sable/Ford Taurus station wagon. First of all, in terms of on-line information, you can access Consumer Reports, but only if you are on AOL. The last comprehensive report was April 97. It boils down to this: If reliability is your first priority, your options are two: The Honda Odyssey/Isuzu Oasis twins or the Toyota Previa (no data on the completely new minivan, the '98 Toyota Siena, but reliability should be good). The American cars are nowhere near the Japanese in reliability.

However, if safety is your first priority, the American cars hold up better in crash tests - particularly the Ford Windstar. The Honda is okay and the Toyota Previa poor - again no data yet on the Sienna, which is a complete redesign, based on the Camry. In terms of convenience, I prefer the models which have five doors (two on each side, one on back). Some people think the Honda design, which has regular doors rather than sliding doors, is safer in that oncoming traffic has a visual cue when it sees the open door. On the other hand, the Honda is a lot smaller, with less cargo and leg room. It basically feels like a station wagon. This also translates to somewhat better gas mileage (25 mpg/hwy) and a lower ride; the latter factor was important to a friend with a child prone to car sickness.

Yesterday I test drove the new Sienna (hard to find them - I had to go to Richmond Hilltop), and it handles very nicely, has much more horsepower than the Previa, it's quiet, gets good mileage (24 mpg/hwy). However, inside it's pretty plain - barely any storage other than a zillion cupholders. The glove compartment is TINY, and unlike the Dodge Caravan, there's no underseat storage or other storage areas. Last spring we rented a Dodge (which is the same as the Plymouth and the Chrysler) for a vacation, and found it to be well designed, but it has mediocre reliability. Its performance on crash tests was adequate; not as good as the Ford, slightly better than the Honda and Nissan, much better than the Previa.

If anyone has anything to say about the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager, I'd like to hear about it, as I know less about it. I want something with good reliability, decent gas mileage, excellent safety, and an intelligent design. Doesn't seem to exist.

Think carefully about whether or not you really NEED one. They are harder to park, use more gas, and are harder to drive in traffic than a car. They also cost a lot and die hard. We resolved to drive a regular car and rent a van for trips. That way we always get a new van for our vacations or for times when we need to cart a lot of people around, we let someone else vacuum it out after, and we have saved a lot of money in cost and insurance. For different kinds of expeditions, we can rent a different kind of vehicle too, for example for snow trips we rent 4wd. Do a cost comparison and see how it comes out.

I recently bought a Sienna, after trying to decide between that and the Honda, for several reasons. First, I bought the minivan last August and the new Hondas were not yet available (but I would have waited if I thought the Honda would have been better for me). I live in SF and have a "normal" size garage. That means there's about 1 inch clearance (or less!) on either side of the car, when the mirrors are extended, when I go in and out the garage. I believe the Honda is a little wider, but this is based on info I received by phone rather than by observation. The Toyota is also a little shorter, which I prefer, because the thought of parking a large minivan was daunting. There were also little details, like the low tire pressure gauge, but this is all a matter of opinion. I've got over 10K miles on the vehicle, and I'm very happy with it!

We bought the Sienna last year and have loved it. It's very comfortable, not TOO big, and most importantly has an excellent safety record. The only trouble we have had is with one sliding door "hook" -- the mechanism to keep the door locked OPEN doesn't work in one door. We tried to get it fixed months ago by the dealer, and were told they were awaiting replacement parts from Toyota. The dealer -- who otherwise was great -- still hasn't called to let us know if the part is in yet. In fiarness though, we haven't followed up with them either. Our dealer is Toyota of Berkeley.

I have looked at the Toyota Sienna and the old Honda Odyssey, and though I have not bought either (stuck with the old Taurus wagon), I would like to point out something that made me decide not to purchase the Sienna - it takes only Premium gasoline. This is not an advertised feature, and it really annoyed me that Toyota would make a family vehicle that requires premium fuel. I know its a great van, but it is expensive to begin with, and you will be paying more money for it every single time you go fill it up. My 2 cents.

Lindsay Schachinger This is not true. I have a new Sienna, and the owner's manual says it takes octane 87, which is regular fuel. I am quite certain about that. BTW, I like the Sienna alot. I have been a Honda owner for 15 years, and wanted to buy another Honda, but the hype and big markups ($2-3K over MSRP) on the Odyssey really turned me off. The two dealers I talked to said I couldn't even drive one without putting down $500 and waiting 2-3 months, and they were very snotty about it.

MINIVAN UPDATE Belated thanks to everyone for the advice on minivans. Since several people have asked me what we ended up with, for the reference of other car shoppers, here's what we found: We have purchased a minivan but the experience has not been pleasant.We decided on a Toyota Sienna, the new model just out which replaced the Previa. It's a great car, built on a Camry platform, and we expect that it will be very reliable. It has two rear doors and the most flexible seating arrangements we've seen (eg you can take out a seat from the second row and the seat directly behind it in the third row to carry long narrow cargo while still seating 4 people) and the feel of the car, the quietness of the engine, the way the seats move, doors slam etc was superior to other minivans. It's also priced more competitively than the Previa was. The problem is, it's in short supply so it's a real seller's market. You have to buy a car and wait for it to come in. It can be hard even to find a dealership with one in stock for a test drive. If you can wait till later in the year when the supply increases, you'll probably get a better deal. Right now many dealers are selling at sticker or, I've heard, even marking up. Our experience was that we put a deposit on a car (a specific car; they gave us the vehicle ID number) at Hanlee's Hilltop Toyota in Richmond and they said it would be available 12/17. It's 12/29 and it's still not in and the dealership has been rude and duplicitous in explaining (or not explaining) what's happening. We got Hanlee's to give us a deal well below sticker but I almost wish we had gone with Walnut Creek Toyota where the people seem more straightforward (fyi, they also have a fairly good supply of Siennas compared to other dealers) and where the pricing is also straightforward: they're selling at sticker, period, no negotiations. If anyone has any advice on dealing with recalcitrant dealers, or knows how to track down just where a car is based on its vehicle ID number (we fear it's been damaged and is in the shop or something) I'd love to hear about it.

We have a 1995 Mercury Villager that we bought used this past February with 19,000 miles on it for $17,000.00. Before we bought the van I went to the library and looked at the auto magazines that compare and value cars. This was essential. I would suggest that you do this before you go shopping. Many of the vans are basically made by one company, but sold as 2 different vans, like the Villager, which is the same car as the Quest made by Nissan and the Honda van is the same as another lesser cost van (I don't remember which one). Also, we used an auto broker that we found through Cal State 9 credit union. If you don't like haggling over price, an auto broker is the way to go. After you read about what's available, go test drive and decide which colors and features you want, but don't buy the van until you call the auto broker. The broker will locate the van you want and give you a price. This price will be lower than the sticker price and lower than any price quoted to you by a dealer. You cannot haggle over this price, but you may be able to get a lower price from the dealer. I much prefer buying cars this way. I hate dealing with car sales people. Good luck.

We had a 1994 Villager. The pluses were that it really handled like a car instead of a van and got reasonable gas mileage. It was also nice to be able to pass through on the inside (btwn driver and front passagenger seats) to get the kids when they needed something.

Minuses were that we spend a lot of time parked on step inclines and I often had trouble with the weight of the sliding door. This is probably in part because I am rather short too. The service department at the dealer for warranty work ( Neigherbon in Oakland) was very bad also.

Regarding a possible van purchase, if you get a used one, I'd stay away from Ford Aerostars, we got ours in 1989 and it has had a series of nagging problems, drives like a truck, has no turning radius, is difficult for short or frail elderly people to get in to, and generally give me more pain than pleasure. There have been major improvements since then in all vans, and its probably worth it to get a later model and pay a little more. Good luck, and after you do your research, let us know what you decide to buy.