He refuses to share money and wants a pre-nup

My partner and I have been together for four years and haven't gotten officially married, though we did have a commitment ceremony. Once we started trying to have a baby, though (one year ago), I realized I really wanted to get married but he's been resisting. I haven't wanted to pressure him, but as the year has gone by and I haven't been able to get pregnant (I'm 37), I feel more strongly that I would love to live our future together as a married couple. But when I do bring up getting married he says things like, ''We need to figure out how to make more money.''

He makes a lot more money than I do (in the six figures) and has a very demanding work schedule. He said he's glad we haven't been able to have a baby yet because we don't make enough money, he wants me to agree to work full time if we do have a baby so we have more money, and he doesn't want to get married unless I sign a pre-nuptial agreement about what would happen to his money if I divorce him because of his work schedule. He says he doesn't want to ''get screwed'' and lose all his money and his house in a divorce.

I am floored by this--he is such a good and loving person--and I know it's a good practical idea to think through finances before getting married, but isn't this a weird way of looking at money and marriage? To prepare financially for divorce because you're not willing to modify your work schedule once we have a family? I read a post on BPN about ''A Couples Guide to Love and Money'' and after reading the book I embraced its idea of having a joint checking account and using our money to accomplish our future goals together. He refused to combine our money, though, and I continue to pay him ''rent'' plus we split all groceries, pet bills, dates, furniture, kitchen supplies, etc by 50%. I feel very naive--I'm the one who is a teacher, never making much money, but finding ways to travel, visit friends and family on the East coast, but not devoting much thought to money. Is he practical and responsible, and am I idealistic and irresponsible? Do people typically think this way about money and pre-nups? Is this a fundamental clash of values? Is this something bigger than finances? love -n- money

It’s impossible to predict ahead of time how things will work out – he could well change his mind once he actually has a baby, and maybe he’s just uptight about money – some people are. But I don’t think you want to sign any agreements that leave you vulnerable after you get married and/or have a child. Maybe you should talk to a couples’ counselor? Or a lawyer? 50/50 is not always equal

I understand the desire for making more money, especially in partner's in times of family planning, but what you described sounds like an actual problem, perhaps an addition. I would advise you to suggest couples counseling or one-on-one counseling for your partner, whichever seems more likely to happen. This does sound like a clash in values big time, and becuase of that, you want to think long and hard about the decision you make. You don't want to regret not having a family due to this. Good luck! Sharing is good

Your boyfriend doesn't want to share his income with you, even while you're together. He doesn't seem to want to share much of anything with you. He doesn't want to marry you.

If he did, you'd be married been there, moved on

I have heard, though, that people in unequal relationships liek this, but where the woman still pays half of everything (taking 2/3 of her pay and a miniscuule amount of the man's) never work out. Apparently, down the road, the women seem to feel tha man is stingy. I wouldn't know, but I'm hoping to get to gether with a guy around my income level next time, rather than one who is always bugging me to change so I can make more money (and stop doing the work i love) anon

Paying bills in ''roommate mode'' - what's a fair split?

Hi, I have a question about how to pay the bills when each person in the couple is earning a different amount. Maybe both earn similar hourly amounts, but one works more hours. Or maybe they both work the same 40 hours, but one ears twice as much.

What is fair? How do you decide what goes in the joint account and what stays separate? Do both contribute a percentage of their income? Do you put equal amounts in a joint acount? Do you keep equal amounts in separate accounts for ''personal'' spending?

I feel stuck in the ''roommate mode'' where we both contribute equal amounts to family life, but it is feeling very unfair to me. He has a whole lot left over for lunch with his buddies or electronic gadgets, and I have little. Just writing this has made me realize how messed up this is. Anybody know of a website or book to consult? Thanks. financial idiot

My husband and I have very different incomes - I work full-time and he is a part-time stay at home parent, and also works very part-time. We've done our budget together, and we figured out how much is left over after all bills and expenses (not much!) and we split that amount evenly for our personal use (for things like lunches out, items we wish to buy). I pay most bills, daycare, groceries and the mortgage, and he pays for errands that he has time to run but I don't (filling the car with gas, trips to the pet food store or Costco, doctor co-pays, etc.). It generally works out so that we have an equal amount left over, but if he's short on funds then I write him a check so he has money to spend.

Since we've agreed on a certain amount per week of spending money (same amount for each of us) and since we both pretty much stick to it, this feels fair to both of us. The only thing we haven't worked out here is that he feels like a teenager asking his parents for money when he has to have me write him a check... which isn't a good dynamic. Eventually we'll work out a better system for that. anon

My husband makes more than twice what I make, so if we split things, I don't know if I could even come up with my 'share'. And he would never consider suggesting it. Team member

1. Figure out which expenses are shared. Some are obvious, like PG&E, while others, like dinners out, may require some discussion. Come up with a total amount for the year to cover those expenses (plus a little extra). Divide that by 12. This is the amount that needs to go in a joint account each month.

2. Total your income and his. Figure out the percent of income you each have to that total. For example, if you earn $40k and he earns $60k then you're earning 40% of $100k and he is earning 60%.

3. Multipy your percent by the amount from #1. This is how much you put in the joint account each month. He puts in the balance (which should be the same as the figure that you would come up with if you multiplied his percent by #1.

4. Re-evaluate the amount in #1 at the end of a year as you may find there are expenses that are appropriate to the joint that were not considered or that an inadequate amount of funds was being put in to cover the agreed upon expenses.

Another option is one you suggested, you put a pre-determined amount into each person's personal account. You would have to decide what gets paid from your personal accounts.

It is important to remember that most everyone has money issues that go beyond the obvious. Discussing those at the outset will help. Successfully Done It

I also liked ''Get a Financial Life'' which does a good job of explaining basic financial concepts like why the coat you bought for $70 really cost you $100. But ''The Family CFO'' is more practical and hands-on and more applicable to couples and families.

Others I've read that are good for just inspiration or for a few key concepts like saving or getting out of debt:

Suze Orman's books
Rich Dad, Poor Dad
Seven Laws of Money
Overcoming Overspending

If you both work, how do you divide up the bills?

I've read the previous advice from 2003 about couples and finances. I'd like to ask specifically about how couples that both work share finances, grocery shopping, household cleaning and child care. When one person works part time and does more of the child care are they still responsible for 1/2 the bills, etc.? Any information on gifted money from parents and how that is used is appreciated in advance. Thank you very much.
anon working mom

This is different from pre-baby. we kept out own money and divvied up the bills by half. Now, however, it doesn't matter WHO makes more because the only way we can do it is as a team (i.e., if I wasn't taking care of baby, the money she makes would be nice, but more sent to daycare, etc.) Hope this helps GO TEAM!

I work 40 hours, my partner works 30 hours paid + 20 hours volunteer. We pay for childcare during some of those unpaid hours and I cover the rest weekends/ evenings. We divide the bills that we each pay and try to adjust the division to be sure that we each are accumulating $ in retirement/ savings accounts. We divide household chores based on what we like to do or feel controlling about. I do cooking, 1/2 grocery shopping, bedtime, laundry, childcare arrangements, vacation arrangements, healthcare arrangements, and planning for house improvements. My partner does dishes, most pick-up/drop-off, morning routine, car maintenance, house improvements, 1/2 grocery shopping, 1/2 house cleaning, all gardening. Maybe we are lucky that the split feels rather fair. anon

Since my partner is a part-time stay-at-home dad, he ends up with a lot of the chores. He does all the dishes and all the laundry, and small daily cleaning tasks. On weekends, I do all the grocery shopping and one big full-house cleaning stint. We share pet care. I also do much of the cooking, but that's just because of how our schedules work out - he has many activities that start around dinner time, so I end up responsible for dinner.

Child care is another hard one. Our 3.5 year old son is in daycare 2 days per week, and with his grandmother 1 day per week. My partner has him 1.5 days per week, and I work extra hours at the beginning of the week so I can take off part of Friday to spend with our son. Basically, in the mornings, at night, and over the weekends I am primarily responsible for him. This means that I don't get much time to myself. My partner gets more. We could try to work on it to make it more ''fair'' to me, but adult concepts of what is fair don't make any difference at all to a 3.5 year old boy who would rather spend time with his mama than anyone else. Since I am not with him during the day on weekdays, he really misses me by the evening time, and wants the whole weekend with me as well. I have just come to grips with the fact that this cannot be split ''fairly'' and take my moments to myself when I can get them. This is after years of me griping to my partner that he needs to give me more time to myself, and trying every which way to make it happen - and it just ends up being unsatisfying for me and hard on everyone else. anon

Here's how it works. All money that comes to us (salary, bonuses, gifts to us as a family) go into the ''corporation''. The corporation pays all household-type expenses (housing, food, gas, car repair, kids, etc.). It also pays each of us an equal monthly allowance. The rule is, your allowance is yours to do what you wish and the other person has no say about it. We use allowance for our own clothes, lunch/ dinner out, gifts to each other, help for friends in need--anything that benefits only one of us or that is controversial.

If money were gifted to one of us (like a birthday check), it belongs to that person. However, if one of us got a huge sum--inheritance, let's say, we would put it in the corporation. Good luck! happy egalitarian

How to divvy up expenses now that we have a baby

My longterm boyfriend and I recently had a baby and, after many years of having no clear financial arrangement, we find ourselves fighting about money a lot. I'd be curious to know how other couples/families divvie up finances, and what they'd recommend for my situation. Our background: when at my job full time, I make about 40-50 percent of what he does. I'm now working three days a week and taking care of our baby two days (plus many saturdays, when he works). He owns the house, and he pays the mortgage and the bills (his choice, not mine). Till now, we've had separate accounts, and i've typically paid for groceries and big ticket items like sofas. It might sound like i'm getting a great deal, but in fact i hate how nebulous it is, and i feel powerless; i'd much rather be pulling my weight financially and feel like i owned the house as well. plus, there's an underlying expectation on his part that i do most of the housekeeping and more traditional domestic chores since i'm not paying rent or bills. my preference would be to come up with an agreement where i contribute more money, and do less (though still the majority of) domestic work. but he's reluctant to even discuss it, and keeps complaining about how he's paying for everything and i should be doing more. (with a new baby and a job, i feel stretched to the absolute limit as it is). I also feel my time spent with baby and lost wages from that time isn't taken into consideration.

Ideally, i'd like to come up with an arrangement where i feel more like i'm contributing financially and he doesn't complain of me taking advantage of him. So my question is, if we shared finances, how much would be fair for me to pay: split all expenses 50-50? and if i pay ''rent'', do we factor it at the going rental-market rate, or as percentage of his mortgage (he bought house cheap 10 years ago). How do you factor in my taking care of baby two-three days a week, and my lost wages from those days? And how do we best join our finances: bank account? contribute a certain amount to an account every month? What difference would it make to our finances if we were to marry? (and would i be more protected in case we were to ever split, god forbid). And, if we are to eventually buy a house together (which i think might make me feel less like i moved into his world), how do we share that expense, considering he has a lot more money than i do.

Lastly, if we can't resolve this on our own, can someone recommend a professional to help us come to some sort of agreement on this? anon

Be that as it may, let me answer your questions. If you get married, and don't have a prenup, then everything he makes from now on will be community property. That means that half of his salary is yours (and half of your salary is his). If you buy a home before you get married, you'll have to come to some agreement as to whether the house is equally shared or whether you are buying only a part of the house. If you buy it after you are married, the house will also be community property. anon

What took me a long time to realize (and accept) was that our finances were never going to be equal (and I mean both ways, there have been times in the last couple of years that our income levels changed and I was the one bringing in more and paying more). And I was not a bad/lesser person because of this. When I finally accepted this, it also made me stop trying (and feeling guilty) that I was not making the same as him. There is so much more to a relationship and family and career than $$. You work hard for your money, and for your family and relationship -- respect your money and honor all that you do! It's not your fault that he brings in more. And just because he does, does not mean you should feel obligated to always being do more to make up the difference.

My advice would be to combine into one account for both incomes/and all expenses. If you both crave a little more independence -- have separate savings/investment accounts. It is one thing when you are two individuals living together, expenses can be split up in an easier way. But when you have a child, it's just not as easy. There are so many expenses that need to be covered by both of you (and you definitely don't want to have to discuss every expense that comes up) and making your baby a priority means that both of you can no longer focus on just your careers and bringing in a certain amount of money.

If this freaks your boyfriend out because he already thinks he's paying to much, talk to him about what he thinks the family priorities should be. If he really thinks (and you agree) that you should work more, then maybe you should discuss daycare alternatives and bringing in a housecleaner a couple times a month. If he really thinks it's important for the baby to be cared for by you (and him) then he'll need to accept the fact that there's going to be a limited amount of money for awhile and he'll be bringing in more of it.

It sounds to me like you are doing a LOT of work (baby, job, house) -- so much of which does not have a dollar sign attached to it. Respect and stand up for all that you contribute to the family. It is worth a great deal and you should feel good about all that you do -- not like you're never doing enough. Regarding the house thing, I'm probably not the best person to give advice on this (I'm still not on the deed for the house my husband bought during our relationship but prior to our marriage). I personally think, more important than what to do with the house, is making plans to protect the baby (and also you since you are caring for the baby) if something should happen to your boyfriend. Insurance? Will? Add you to the deed? I'm not sure which makes the best financial sense but an investment planner can probably help you there. Best of luck! cj

I can tell you what my husband and I have done. Before we were married, we got a joint credit card and used it to pay for joint expenses (restaurant meals, theater tickets, 'toys' we planned to share) and split the bill 50/50, and after we moved in togehter, we did the same with rent and other household expenses. When we married, we decided that 50/50 was no longer appropriate and began dividing all household and joint bills in the same proportion as our respective incomes. Which meant it stayed almost 50/50, as it happens, since we've so far earned very similar incomes, but we've built some flexibility into the system for the future. We've never had a truly joint bank account, though we each are named as an accountholder on the other's accounts so that we do have access to each other's money if and when needed. I'm in charge of paying the bills and my husband simply transfers ''his share'' into my account twice a month.

Other couples I know, instead of sharing the expenses proportionately, budget a certain amount of money for each spouse to be the ''mad money'' and each contributes all *but* that amount into a 'household' bank account from which all bills are paid. I do know others who use a ''he pays these bills, she pays those'' system as you are doing. Any of these can work just fine but there has to be an underlying agreement about how and how much each of you is contributing to the economic and social unit that is your family and how those contributions (in $$$ and time) are valued. It sounds like you may not have that, and I think trying to create it by changing how you manage your bills is putting the cart before the horse. I suggest a serious talk with your partner about coordinating your needs, expectations and values FIRST, and the question of who pays how much of what bills from which account should suddenly become much easier to answer. Good luck! Holly

Husband is terrible with money!

My husband seems to have no financial management skills! It's starting to be a big problem because we have recently begun filing joint income tax returns (our accountant says it will save us money). Both of us are self-employed so we are responsible for paying our taxes at the end of the year (as opposed to payroll deductions) and my husband never has saved up enough money to do so in April. This year I'm trying to get him to pay his quarterly estimated taxes but he ''doesn't think that's a priority'' so he's not ready and has no money set aside to do so. I'm going to pay them this quarter myself because I don't want to be hit with a huge tax bill again next April.

My husband goes to his job every day and works hard but somehow never has enough money to make ends meet. He also doesn't pay any of his bills on time and when they arrive he doesn't even open them (''no money so why bother?''). I've taken over paying all of the household bills so that our electricity stays on - my husband is supposed to pay me back for half of the bills but never seems to have enough money to do so. We don't live extravagantly and in fact I try to save money wherever possible (hand-me-downs, eating in every night, no fancy vacations).

He is otherwise a loving, considerate and wonderful spouse and father and he feels very guilty about not having enough money to pay me back in a timely fashion. But I'm starting to feel like I'm enabling his poor money management skills by picking up the slack all the time. I can ill afford it as I'm a poor abused part-time academic but I like having electricity and groceries so I can't just let the bills slide. I'm worried that my meager savings will start to dwindle if things continue the way they do but I'm at the end of my rope and I don't know what to do. Any advice is welcome! Anonymous

If he is unable or unwilling to develop reasonable skills and habits, one alternative is to insist that you take over all financial management for the marriage: that means managing your COMBINED income and expenses. I strongly urge you to educate yourself as to your legal rights. The California Family Code is the authoritative source, and you can read through it at: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=fam&codebody=&hits=20 You might also want to encourage your husband to attend some financial-management classes (available through community college courses, private workshops, etc.) together with you. Good luck! Noni

If this is an old debt from before you got together, why not forgive it - you are married, no?

In our house, I do all the financial stuff. IRS, bills, checkbook, etc. We have a strict budget (cause we're so poor :)) but sometimes Jamie will make a purchase that he just ''has'' to have and we adjust. :)

AFAIC, it is simple give and take - I remind him about the budget when he overspends - we're all quite human and I am tempted to spend money at times also. We all have our strengths and weaknesses - I am good with numbers and meeting deadlines (well, usually :)) and he is good in many other ways. Kathy

I sympathize completely and am glad to know there are other wives out there with economically-challenged husbands. Your situation and concerns sound eerily identical to mine! Here's how I have come to terms with it. Our original money arrangement, when first married, was a straightforward separate-but-equal, ''yours, mine, and ours'' , ''I pay my bills and you pay yours'' method. I should have realized then that this arrangement enabled his bad money habits. After seven years of paying his late bills, counseling, yelling, pleading and finally a bankruptcy (!!!) I realized that he was not going to change. Either we continue like this or I change.

So, I've done what I should have done to begin with - I am our mutually recognized household money manager. I resisted this role because I (naively) believed that he should learn to manage his own money, and because I feared I might undermine his self-respect. But that attitude of mine was NOT working. Once I accepted that he was never going to manage his money - I decided that I must manage our money - mine and his.

Now he gives me his paycheck (auto deposit). I combine our earnings each month, pay our bills, put some in savings, and give us both a cash ''allowance'' for the month. It's less stress for both of us and it works! He now refers to me as his business manager and we're financially very secure and comfortable.

I read recently that in 40% of married couples, the wife manages the money. I wish I'd read that sooner! anonymous

Financial planner for couple with money disagreements

My husband and I have been married 22 years. Embarrassingly long to still have so many issues. We have had money disagreements/problems our entire marriage, but we're now in our 50's and this is ridiculous. My gut feeling is I'd like to find someone to look at our money/spending/debt, put us on a budget, have us be accountable to that person. We are completely stuck. Please don't suggest therapy (we already have a second mortgage's worth we're still paying on). We love each other, are staying married, but can't seem to make progess. And we each think the other is ''wrong'' about how to do money. I was a stay at home mom for most of our marriage and let him be in charge. Now that I earn money, it doesn't seem to be much different. And, my husband is an engineer who deals with million dollar budgets so he thinks he knows all there is to know about money. Sigh. Any recommendations/advice appreciated. anon

Both of them are extremely knowledgeable in the fields of finance, lending, financial management, small business consulting and real estate. Brandi is the financial manager and she is outstanding. We came to her with the same issues you describe and having just received a small inheritance. We also run a small business. Because we differ in our attitudes about money, I was worried that we would squander what we just received. Plus we really need to start saving for retirement and get out of debt.

Brandi has helped us to sort out, prioritize and fulfill our financial goals, get a handle on our debt and grow our business. She is so reassuring, encouraging and a pleasure to be around. She responds quickly and with very useful information. You can reach them at 415-664-5884. They almost always answer the phone. Their cell is 925-354-3100.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to call me at 510-567-9559. Catherine

Seeking a Financial Planner/Therapist Combo

A long time ago, my husband and I received a very helpful consultation with a Berkeley woman named Michelle Martin; she was both a MFCC (therapist) and a financial planner. She helped us work out many financial ''issues'' on both an emotional and practical level. She doesn't seem to be around anymore. We would love to find someone like this; traditional therapists really do not have the financial expertise we are seeking; and financial planners do not have the same sensitivity to emotional and interpersonal issues. We would love to find a similar ''combo'' professional who could help us sort through some issues we are currently dealing with. Any recommendations would be welcomed Susan

Planner to help separate couple's finances

My husband and I are would like to untangle and separate our finances. Does anyone have a financial planner they really like? Ideally, we would like someone with alot of experience/knowlege who is clear, kind, focused and goal-oriented. It seems pretty straight forward but I do see where it could get sticky, so I suppose that they should be sensitive too. Also I am assuming knowlege of California family law will be needed. We would appreciate your input.
Untangling the Tangle

Financial advisor or couples therapist?

Here's an example of our situation: my husband thinks that we can't afford to do go anywhere and I, without much thought, can decide that we can afford that $10,000 dream vacation. I would like us to find someone who can help us understand exactly where we are financially, how we should plan for the future, and what we can spend in order to enjoy life right now. Is there a financial planner who has the skills of a couples counselor, or vice versa?
head in clouds or maybe not

I recommend Rick Prime at Financial Network. Rick is an exceptional listener and can analyze your financial portfolio to help you figure out what you can afford to do in the present and future given your current and expected earnings. He is very diplomatic and equally good at listening to each partner -- much like a couples counselor in his approach. On the other hand, he's very analytical and can put together a long-term financial plan that explains just what your options are in various scenarios, including retirement planning, investing for college, upgrading your living situation and simply enjoying life. He is well-traveled and very diligent about asking about your vacation, travel and recreational goals and incorporating them into his analysis. I think he charges around $1800 to do a full plan, which takes into account your objectives and interests and how you can best save for them. His plans are very detailed and thorough, a really valuable road map in understanding your financial situation. He also manages investments, of course. But it's his personal style and realistic approach that make him really terrific to work with. His phone number is 510/384-1009. His email is primer AT financialnetwork.com. A happy client

Looking for books/therapy for couples financial compatibility

My partner and I are looking for a couples counselor, workshop, group or reading material that can help us determine if we are financially compatible. Oakland, Berkeley, Emeryville area. Thanks! anon

Financial advisor or couples therapist?

I'd like to know if there are any therapists in the east bay that specialize in counseling couples on financial matters. Ideally the person would be able to handle a garden variety of marital issues, but have specific expertise in they area of spending behaviors. Looking for someone who could give very practical advice on how to approach money responsibly while dealing with the causes of current, not-so-responsible, behaviors. Open to hearing recommendations from people who have undergone this kind of therapy, or from therpists themselves who specialize in this. Thanks.