4-year-old's lies

My 4 year old daughter lies to get out of trouble, then she insists her lies are true. Today she splashed water all over the bathroom floor. Not such a big deal, BUT she insisted that she hadn't done anything and there was no water there! When I pressed her (is that water or pee?), she said it was water, but she hadn't done it. Sometimes she also blames things on the cats, or on me - ''you did it''

I don't hit her and punishment is usually a talking to or/and a time-out. In fact, I go lighter on her (no time out) and praise her if she tells the truth, but I do get angry when she lies. Later on, she usually comes clean with the truth --if she's caught.

A note - Her childcare provider stretched truths and lied to get out of situations. On one occasion she even had my daughter lie to me! My daughter is not at that center anymore, but she was there for two years.

I want my daughter to understand how important telling the truth is- and would welcome some advice. anon

The most obvious lies are really the worst because it feels like a challenge to our intelligence. Your getting angry about lying sounds like a trigger for you, about something bigger than your 4 year old. I find when something my kids do really gets to me, it is more about me and my past than about exactly what my kid is doing, once I look at that, it is easier for me to put my kids action into perspective, and let my heart grow. One of the many (challenging) ways our kids help us grow into better people. Try saying something like '' I bet you didn't realize all the water was going on the floor, here is a towel'' or ''Hey lets clean that up!'' Two things about lying

1) If a child is in the habit of lying don't give them the opportunity by saying things like ''Who did this?'' or ''did you do this'' when you already know or can guess the answer

2) Ignore the lie and look behind it for the cause. Ask yourself what are they afraid of ? Good luck annie

It sounds like your daughter's previous daycare experience may have been less than ideal, but I wouldn't worry about it having been the source of her lying. She probably would have come up with this idea anyway!

I would try to accept the lying as more or less natural, and to try instead to make her think as much as possible that you are omniscient and you know the truth anyway. Often kids KNOW that you know the right answer but just can't manage to say it themselves. Their egocentrism and desire to ''save face'' (yes, toddlers and preschoolers have this) gets in the way. In the case of the spilled water, you could just say, Oh, really? in response to her denial, and then hand her a towel and make sure she cleans it up before getting to resume playing. So the consequences are the same either way, because you the all- powerful parent know the truth anyway.

That doesn't mean she shouldn't ever be punished for lying, such as when she deliberately lies to hurt someone. But you may find that it works best to save those kinds of punishments for a few years, like when she is 6+, and you know that she KNOWS she is lying. Right now, at age 4, the lines are fuzzy between awareness of what is truth and what is imaginary (''if I say it, does that make it true?''), so it's quite possible that she is confused about being punished for lying per se. Good luck

Children lie because they are afraid of what will happen if they tell the truth.

Rather than saying something like "Did you splash water on the floor?" You should say something like "I see that when you were playing with the water some spilled on the floor. Let's both grab a wash cloth and clean it up." Then do it.

Children shouldn't be forced into admitting something just because an adult wants satisfaction of the admission of guilt. As long as you choose to make your questions rhetorical and consequence driven, you will have a child who is frightened enough to lie.

If the deed was clearly done by your daughter, then help her get the mess cleaned up. While you are cleaning, you can talk about her coming to you if the mess is more than she can handle, if she doesn't quite know what to do. When you make it easy to tell the truth, when the consequence of telling the truth outweigh the consequence of lying, when your daughter can trust that you only want to resolve the issue not punish her, she will begin telling the truth. Works for me in the classroom and at home

I don't think the word ''lying'' really totally applies and I don't think this is a huge deal. Also I'd avoid focusing on blame. Hope this helps. Anon

Yes, that age is the time that your child is learning about reality and truth. It's such an important age. However, to let it pass or not address it directly will just reinforce to your daughter that lying is an option when you want to avoid consequences. Please don't sidestep a conversation about honesty.

It really bothered me that a couple responders made it sound like your daughter was lying because she was so afraid of your obviously harsh reactions that she had no choice and even went on to tell you how to handle the mess situation and not the lying situation. You must be one of those parents that over-reacts and needs to learn how to better handle the situation, right? (Ugh)

Maybe I'm tiring of my proximity to Berkeley, but I couldn't believe that someone might actually describe the act of asking your child to take responsibility for her actions as ''being forced into admitting something just because an adult wants satisfaction of the admission of guilt.'' Yikes!

It was a very long article, but I really learned a lot from the NY Mag piece that was linked to in one of the responses and it reinforced my experience as a parent. You need to talk about truth and honesty with your child--including at age four. Also, you need to talk about not only the consequences of lying and dishonesty, but the great benefits of truthfulness and taking responsibility (the George Washington example.)

The responsibility thing is a big deal. I'm a pretty strict parent with straightforward consequences, and I find that instead of lying, my children usually come to me early in a situation like yours and tell me the truth so that they can at least balance any downside of doing something wrong with the upside (mostly praise) for being honest.

Good luck with your daughter! Anon

4 yr old - lies and steals

My husband just got the dreaded phone call from my daughter's (age 4) pre-school asking if we included blueberries in her lunch (we had not). Apparently, our daughter insisted those were hers much to the dismay and tears of another girl. Of late, she has been telling more ''lies'' or stories - like having her hand in the cookie jar and insisting that it's not hers (and our cat gets blamed for many things now) - and I get that this is developmentally normal. It was helpful to read posts on BPN on this subject. I guess her taking something that does not belong to her really bothers me. I know that I will not get responses to this before I pick her up in a few hours, but I did want to get ideas on how to deal with this in the future. My plan is to pick her up and ask about the episode and hope that my daughter can empathize with the other girl's loss/feelings. My hope is to be calm about this and keep reminding my daughter of our unconditional love. She tends to be a girl who does not get in trouble so on the rare incidents when she does something against the ''rules'' and we talk about it, she shows intense sad and angry feelings. It helps just to write this and send it off as a posting but I would love to hear about other's success and struggles dealing with this issue. Thanks worried mama

Our three-year-old daughter has started lying recently along the lines of "I didn't spill my milk" and "I didn't push my brother", when she did them right in front of me or my husband. I don't think our response to these acts is harsh or unpredictable. Our response to her lying, which has been to talk to her about telling the truth and how that's more important than spilling milk, has not been particularly effective - at least not visibly. I am wondering if anyone has anything to say about instilling honesty in children of this age. Deborah

8-year-old daughter is lying

I'm wondering if anyone has encountered this, and your philosophy on how to handle it. My daughter is 8, but has always been very mature for her age. Rather wise, if you will. From time to time, I have caught, or heard, her tell a lie, and either called her out on it, or not. She has two little siblings, and sometimes I have felt it's a defense mechanism, perhaps a perfectionist complex, in a way. Only at times when it comes down to word against word have I forced her to (i.e.) stay in her room until ready to tell the truth, etc. Otherwise, it kind of just feels like regular ''kid stuff''. Well, last month I caught her in a bold faced lie, the kind that was not even worth telling, it was just to be ''right''. I called her out on it, knowing it was a lie, but she swore it was true. I didn't do anything but give her the dreaded look of matronly disappointment. I let her know I knew it wasn't true, but didn't force it. Well, that sweet little thing came back to me that night, all shaken up and and said she needed to work it out with me, she had lied. I was so touched, I did nothing but hug her for awhile, told her I had known, and that was it. No punishment. A week later, the same thing. But she was maybe less shaken up. I said thank you for telling me, I thought it wasn't true, please try to speak the truth, etc. A little more 'preachy''. Then, again,a few days later. Here's where I started to wonder, rut roh! Is she going to think as long as she tells me, this is ok? And she's beginning to be more passive about it. So, yesterday was the fourth time, and this time we were at a friends house, I saw her do it, told her I saw her do it, she lied, said no, she didn't (and we're talking small stuff, like eating 3 more croutons instead of 2), but she was really passive. (hey, mom, earlier i lied, i really did take 3) So, my question is, who has dealt with this, and do you just punish as you would anyway? My dilemma is that I want her to see it has consequences, but we all know kids lie, and normally don't confess. Or do they? I guess what my worry is that as soon as I say ok, thanks for telling me, here's your consequence, she won't be open with me anymore. On the flip side, it doesn't seem to be that her conscious is weighing her down anymore, either. More as a way to break a rule, lie, then get away with it. So, my question is, what would you do? I want to hold the line without losing the connection. And she's only 8!! alison

First, I would ask how you are handling the lie right when it happens. It seems from your post that you are witnessing it and asking about it later. She needs to address her dishonesty at the moment it happens and then you can ask, ''Why are you lying? Why is that a solution to this situation?'' It is too diluted if you discuss it later as I think you said.

The second thing I would say, and this goes to the woman with the 4-year-old as well, is that you have to make her see that not lying, read=being honest, is the absolute best way to go. I have hammered this into both of my daughters with two main points:

1-Trust//I tell them that if lying becomes a habit, then they can't be trusted by me or others. That means less freedom, more rules, friends that are wary of them, less interest/regard for what they say. I say this about any dishonesty. If my daughter throws her veggies away at lunch instead of eating them, she must fess up. ''I have to be able to trust you'' is our mantra.

2-Alternative//I have made it very clear that lying is ALWAYS worse than whatever it is they may be trying to cover up. This may not be factually true, but it makes a strong impression when we talk about it. I always tell them any consequences will be worse for lying than for whatever it is they are lying about. (They are girls!! I am trying to make sure we have this down before we hit the teen years!!)

I would not let things slide as ''kid stuff'' (not sure if you said it or the mom of the 4-year-old). Truth and honesty are so important and you need to set an good example and to address these issues as they come up. Good luck! Elizabeth

6-year-old friend's truth-telling drama

I swap childcare with a friend 4-5 times/month and our 6-yr-old girls get along well. It's a great set-up for us and we have been doing this for 4 years. Lately I have been struggling with an issue with my friend's daughter. Like my girl, she is going through a phase I'll call ''experimenting with the truth'', where she will tell a patent lie and then deny it. I deal with friend's tall tales the same way I do with my own spin specialist's, by saying, ''I'm sorry, I disagree with you. The truth is __, you can tell me the truth and I won't be upset because I care about you''. At that point, my daughter will usually drop it. I feel like it is about getting attention. The problem is that friend will then become quite hysterical and insist that she is right. My daughter will often jump in and because she loves to be right, say, ''No, you're wrong'' and then my energy is directed at keeping her out of the argument. Usually I'm successful, but friend continues to challenge me and insist she is right. I tell her the argument is over, but she gets a defiant gleam in her eye (here is where she really differs from my kid) and runs off to the bathroom/bedroom, slams the door and starts screaming ''You're wrong!!! Leave me alone!!'' Which I am happy to do. This has begun happening more frequently and has made many of our previously fun activities crash and burn. I have talked to her mom, and she says it's a problem for her too, but she feels like it is part of her sensitive spirit, and doesn't want to punish her for it. When I've seen mom deal with it, at my house or her own, she usually stands outside the door and asks her to come out and talk, which escalates the tantrum and at least at our house has marked up our walls from kicking, which has deeply embarrassed my mom friend . That's her battle, but at my house I want to find a way to stop it. Any suggestions? CJ

If there is no way around involving yourself in a 'what is the truth discussion' then tell her that you will call her Mom to come pick her up. Ask her to sit on the front sofa until she comes. Make sure that you let Mom know this is coming. Tell her you can't handle the drama in your house. Mom will either figure out how to reign it in...or, she will have her 'days off' cut short.

I have a friend's daughter who is a nightmare drama queen. I nip in the bud -- she is a tattler. I nicely tell her to deal directly with whoever gave her a dirty look, won't share their toy, etc. She won't (I think that she is looking for attention and/or making things up...she is six. I have a five-year-old so my lie-dar is not fully operational, yet) Her tantrums escalate the more attention/soothing I give her, so now I kindly tell her to deal with the problem herself (I don't witness any of these travesties to humanity and there is no blood...and quite frankly, she is the only kid who complains about my daughters) and walk away to take care of some imaginary project. I am not mean, but I won't engage. The drama lasts but a minute. Her Mom blather's on about how sensitive her child is...that is fine, but then help her learn some coping strategies. Don't pull her aside and say 'stop sweetie or you won't have any friends' or don't tell my child to stop antagonizing her daughter. I talked to the Dad of the child (Mom thinks that any naysayers re: her daughter -- including her teachers -- are just being mean.) and told him that all of the crying and drama makes it difficult for my daughter to enjoy the playdates (my own daughter has compared the girl to the ''Boy who Cried Wolf.''). Dad is actually working on it (he backs my style of dealing with his daughter -- gently, but not falling prey to her manipulations). I've also minimized contact -- Mom can't be around my child (don't need an adult saying something nasty to my child-- and she is nearly every time she comes in contact with her. I feel you can make your point and stay kind). I won't have the daughter over to my house if her Mom will be around. The Dads take the daughters to the playground, swimming, etc. Don't know if this helps. -anon

I think all this drama is the child wanting to have adults around. She wants to know that she can trust adults to set boundaries.

I would talk to her and explain that it is not acceptable for her to act that way in your home. If she wants to continue visiting you, she needs to have better manners and respect for you.

Also, if it's a story that doesn't matter, I wouldn't worry to much about contradicting her. Just ignore her.

I think this sensitive kid stuff is extremely damaging to the child. Kids need adults to help teach them impulse control. If not they will be sensitive adults... And there's not a lot of room in the world for us. Teach them dicipline now, so they can have it for the rest of their lives. Love and Logic fan.

Second Grader Stealing and Lying

Recently, our second grade daughter stole about $2 in quarters from her grandmother's state quarters collection. After admitting she was responsible, my daughter expressed deep remorse, voluntarily gave me ''all the quarters'' to give back to her grandmother, wrote her grandmother a letter telling her how ashamed she was and asking what she needed to do to make it up to her grandmother, and told me that she understood how wrong this was and that she would never do it again. In addition to returning the quarters, her grandmother asked her to do certain chores for the next four times she visited.

Then two days later my husband discovered more quarters on top of our daughter's dresser. It turned out that she had kept part of the money she took, hiding it inside a shirt. When she decided to wear the shirt she put the hidden money on top of her dresser where my husband noticed it. So we talked again, this time stressing even more strongly the consequences of stealing, everything from loss of her family's trust, to not being able to freely play or even be welcomed to other people's houses to going to jail for stealing and how awful it is to live in jail. As we spoke, I started crying. She became very serious working hard to comfort me. We put her on a month of restricted privileges. She has been behaving like an angel, observing her restrictions zealously.

This was her third stealing/lying/hiding incident In the past year. However, it was the first time that we know for sure that she has stolen outside our home. In the first two incidents, she first lied unequivocally saying she had not taken anything and became furious at us for finding out what she had done, telling her it was stealing, and requiring her to return or pay for what she had taken. Each of the first two times, she continued to deny having taken anything even when we knew for sure, making up improbable explanations of why she had the items in her possession, then exploding with anger when we didn't accept her stories. After she calmed down and admitted what she had done, she still expressed anger that we had not believed her. She didn't have the anger explosion this time.

We believe that there's a worsening pattern of behavior that needs to be stopped. What have other parents done? How do we handle visits--especially solo visits--to the homes of relatives and friends? How do we tell if she's really trying to change her behavior? How and when do we take steps to rebuild trust? What if she steals or lies to us again? Worried Mom

My almost 6 year old son has been in the habit lately of "tricking" us, as he likes to refer to it, although it is basically blantant lying. My husband and I have explained to him to story behind "crying wolf" but to no avail, its not working. He will often look straight at us and lye about things we've asked him, often serious questions -- when we're not playing around. He'll tell us things such as "no, I didn't do that" or "I didn't say that", etc. when it's perfectly clear to everyone around him that he did do XYZ. I'm not sure what to do, or how to handle this. I especially don't want him to get trapped into a behavior which will make people believe that he is always "tricking" or never telling the truth. Maybe time will take care of it once it finally catches up to him, although I would prefer to nip it now. Thanks.

Failure to complete the sentences resluts in total loss of privledges - TV, radio, stereo, computer, books, games, lessons, homework, sports, nothing is an acceptable excuse. Basically, "Do it now and no fooling around." I choose my issues very carefully and this is a VERY BIG issue.

Obviously this is not workable with a child that can't yet write. For the younger set, I would explain to the child that the behavior is called a lie, and that it is unacceptable and follow it with a long time out.