Finding the Right College
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Finding the Right College
Aug 2009
I wandered into a large bookstore today thinking that I would buy a
book about choosing a college. My son is only a junior but I like to
read non-fiction and thought it would be sort of fun.....
That was until I saw the shelves and shelves of books, each
purporting to be THE book I need to narrow down the college search.
I know about the college board website, but I'd like a paper and ink
book I can curl up with. Can anyone recommend a good one or warn me
against useless ones?
Thanks,
kate
We had about 5-6 books on this subject! I think the two most helpful
were the Insider's Guide and the Fiske Guide. We also had Colleges
that Change Lives, which was good, more focused on a few schools, not
comprehensive like the others. What was most helpful in the end was
visiting. We did that at Spring break Jr. year and over the summer.
Lots of Luck!
parent of a college student!
It's worth checking out several books, as each provides a different
perspective. Here are some books we found helpful:
Colleges that change lives (Loren Pope)--and other books by the same
author
Students Guide to Colleges (with real students' opinions) (Goldman
and Buyers)
Fiske Guide to Colleges
371 (or some #) Best Colleges (Princeton Review)
college bound
There are big books that help with your search and have statistics on
all the possible schools - for that matter College Board has a search
program to help you narrow it down... but,for a nice curl up and read
book I recommend ''Colleges That Change Lives'' written by a guy named
Loren Pope, who spent his career as a college counselor. All 40
schools in the book do something different, and do it well. There is a
website for the book and the schools -- Google CTCL.
When we read the book my daughter was planning to attend a Div I NCAA
University. Two years later she was injured and out of sports, and
transferred to a school she'd encountered in the book (Cornell
College, Mt. Vernon, IA). She likes it there so much her brother
decided to go there as a freshman this year. Yay!
Heather
I was in your shoes a year ago (I just got back from taking my son
to college in NYC...YIKES).
There are SO many ''pick me first'' kind of books.
I bought a book that was about ''How to choose the right college''.
It was a world of info about what questions to ask yourself (the
student) about what you want in a college, where you want to be,
what do you want to study, how much can you/parents afford,
financial aid, etc. GREAT BOOK.
Along with that I got a book called something like ''The best
colleges and universities in the US''...I know, there are many that
say that. I bet they are much the same. Our book listed TONZ of
colleges, large adn small, all over the US, and then it also had
sections of ''best colleges for majors''. My son is majoring in
theatre, so we looked for theatre colleges, big and small, did they
have grad school, how competitive, etc.
Hope this helps. I highly recommend the first book I mentioned. Good
luck. You think THIS is hard...wait till he leaves!!
mom of college guy
I previously posted about a book called ''Getting into the right
college''...I just found that book in my house.
It's the ''Fiske guide to getting into the right college'' It was
really helpful for us.
We also have the Fiske Guide to colleges.
I think Fiske is a long time known publisher of these types of books.
Ours is the 2008 edition, but I bet they don't change much. Good
luck.
If you want to look at these, let me know.
june
''College UNranked:Ending the College Admissions Frenzy'' edited by
Lloyd Thacker is a worthy collection of short essays and lectures by
many college presidents and admissions officers who are concerned
about the students welfare in this ''out-of-control'' college admissions
''contest''. I found many of the pieces contained very practical and
insightful lists of questions to ask when evaluating a school; lists
of questions that the student can ask of him/herself in evaluating
what he/she wants; pieces aimed at the student to give them knowledge
and, thus, power in what can seem to be an uncontrollable situation in
which they have no power, etc. It helped me to put many parts of this
stressful process into perspective so that I could keep my anxiety to
a minimum which allowed me to be there for my son when he needed me.
You can pick and choose which of the pieces seems interesting or
appropriate for your situation. I highly recommend this book.
Mom of a New College Freshman
June 2009
Our son, entering 10th grade, wants an ivy league (or M.I.T)
education. I have no idea how hard it is to get into one of these
schools or how hard it is once you get there. I would love any
suggestions about how to figure out if our kid would get in and do
well at a school like this. I would also love to know of resources
for the ''inside scoop'' on colleges.
Thanks
anon
It is great that your son is motivated to aim high in his college
choices. I have two sons who have gone from Berkeley High to Ivy
League schools. I think that an important message from you is that
if your son works hard on all the college entrance components
(challenging classes, grades, test scores, extracurriculars,
community service, etc) he will have a good chance of going to a
great school he will really enjoy. However, I would try to defuse
the expectation that the school has to be an Ivy. The admissions
process is quirky, and lots of great kids don't get accepted every
year. He should cast a wide net in looking at schools, and keep an
open mind. He needs to work hard at all of those components for
every school, whether an Ivy or not.
There are lots of great books out there for both of you to read
about getting into college. Sit at the bookstore and browse before
you buy, or check them out of the library. Again, cast a wide net to
gain lots of information. A great book about the college admissions
process is ''The Gatekeepers'' by Steinberg.
A timeline plan for both of you to follow is critical. A private
college counselor can help a lot, but they can be quite expensive.
There is a good book ''25 Months Until College'' by Judy McNeely that
provides a step-by-step timeline.
Good luck!
Julie
May 2009
My 10th grade daughter is an average student who tries very hard to
get good grades. Her GPA is about a C. She has a few extra
curricular activities but nothing major.
She really wants to go to college. That being said, how will we find
a college for her? She wants to go to a UC or State school but she
tests horribly and I am certain her SAT scores won't help her cause.
It seems that there are lots of counselors out there who help kids
prepare their essays etc but it feels to me that these are more for
the high achievers than for an average student. Does anyone know of
a college counselor who works specifically with kids who don't have
a 4.0 and tons of extra curricular activities? or do they work with
everyone? also perhaps there is someone who finds colleges that are
slightly off the radar/less competitive/more willing to look at the
whole child? any help appreciated. thanks bpn'ers!
mom of a great, average graded kid
Hi,
I am a Berkeley/Oakland-based college advisor and I think I am representative of many
independent counselors. We mostly do not specialize in the highest-achieving students,
but welcome students at all levels of achievement who could use support for their
college
search and application process. I also co-teach summer essay workshops where, again, we
welcome all rising seniors regardless of their academic records or college goals. I
think
that often it is families with their sights on one of the 50 most-talked-about schools
who
hire advisors, but as student-centered professionals we are often advocating for
families
to consider other excellent but perhaps less well-known options.
For your daughter, an excellent route to CSUs and UCs is the community college system,
which is relatively inexpensive and does not require SATs or other tests for admission.
There are some community colleges with dorms, too.
Good luck!
Susan Weber
I want to send you some encouragement. Just last week my daughter
selected the college she will attend, out of 9 acceptances (she also
got one rejection and one wait-list.) This is not because she has a
4.0 or is student council president. She had just below a B average,
and virtually no extra-curricular activities. We had been worried
about her options.
The couselor we worked with made a big difference, in two ways:
first, she gave us a realistic picture of schools my daughter could
probably not get into, so we could get over that and move on, and
then she introduced us to a bunch of wonderful small schools she had
a good chance at. The one she will be attending I had never heard
of, but I've been there twice now and read up and it's a great
school.
Second, she helped my daughter think about herself and present in
the best way. In her case, we realized that, although she hadn't
done classes and clubs, she does lots of cool creative stuff on her
own. She prepared a photo portfolio of this work, even though she is
not planning to major in art, and wrote a short essay about the role
of self-directed creative activity in her life. Well, guess
what? ''Self-directed'' is a very sought-after quality in a student!
Though I don't have solid proof, I attribute this approach, along
with well-chosen schools to apply to, to her really great experience
in this process. So, above all, start thinking about what your
student has to offer and how to express that. Never mind what they
don't.
Counselors can also help suggest activities for students to
participate in to increase their appeal, though we started too late
for that. We did not do an expensive ''package'' with our counselor,
but worked on an hourly basis, spending about $1200 over all. I'm
not sure if all of them will do this, but it can't hurt to ask.
Good luck!
college mom now
My son was the same. He graduated from Berkeley High with a 2.6 GPA.
He was really quite shocked when he realized he could not get into
the CSUs or UCs. But don't worry - there is hope! Check out the
community colleges - lots of kids go to very nice ones in Santa
Barbara and so on, as well as in other states. And we learned that
state universities in neighboring states have much lower standards
than we have here in California! I suspect also that they are happy to
get the out-of-state tuition from the California students who couldn't
quite get in to our fine universities. It turned out for us that the
overall cost of a university in another state was comparable to going
to a UC. My son applied to several universities in Western States and
was accepted in the first round of admissions even with his crappy
GPA! He had a very nice 4 years at U. Arizona. (Of course there are
many lovely private colleges too, if your budget will allow that!)
Best wishes to you -
average mom of average kids
My oldest son was the same way. He was torn between going to a Cal State or UC. We
checked out all the -- to put it nicely -- lower level U.C.s (Merced, Riverside, and
Santa
Cruz). He started cramming for those awful subject tests that go along with the SAT and
finally said, he didn't think he wanted to go to a school where he'd be at the bottom
level.
He ended up going to Sonoma State and loves it. He has become so independent and is
pulling in all As and Bs, taking a full load and working part time. For us, it's been
wonderful.
Plus, the classes are smaller and he actually knows his professors. He's really into
school -
I can hardly believe it.
Take a good look at a few of the Cal States - Chico is very nice too, as is Humboldt,
for
smaller schools that aren't really commuter schools. Good luck. The UCs have never been
harder to get into.
Also, there is some western affiliation program where she could go to an out of state
college in Oregon, Arizona, Colorado, etc. where she won't pay much more than in-state
tuition. It's limited but there are some great schools like University of Southern
Oregon.
P.S. We tried a college counselor too but they are really geared to getting kids into
top UCs
or Ivy League. Don't spend your money, I found they don't really have any ''secret''
advice
you can't find on the web.
Been there with average student
Yes, your average child can go to college, but it may not be at one of the more
prestigious
colleges. My two daughters, one a senior in high school and the other in her second
year of
college, were both average students with poor SAT scores and not a lot of extra
curricular
activities. I thought that neither of them would get into any college with their grades
and
testing scores. They didn't get into state schools and the more prestigious schools,
but my
oldest daughter got into two all women Catholic schools (less competition) where the
class
sizes are small and she is happy, and my daughter who is graduating was accepted into a
few smaller private schools, but has decided that she wants to start with a year or two
at
community college first and work on her grades and then try to get into a better four
year
school, which sounds like a good plan to me. So, you have to be realistic - either
private
school or community college. Good Luck.
RVF
I wouldn't rule out community college. They have specific
tracks/course loads designed to get kids into UCs and Cal State
schools. I know more than a few people who took that route to UCs.
I know there is a stigma attached to community colleges, but they do a
great job of getting kids ready for the bigger schools. Also, if your
daughter is struggling to stay at an average level in high school, she
might benefit from an intermediate step such as this.
I have twins in high school, who each have several Fs on their transcripts. As a
straight-A
student who won several college scholarships, this was so hard for me to deal with...
until I
talked to an academic counselor last year. She told me about the number of kids who
graduate from high school, do two years at a community college, and then transfer to a
U.C.
She said about 75% of kids who graduate from U.C. start at community colleges. Not only
does this lower the stress for your kids, it is so much more affordable than a 4-year
college.
My brother is paying $28,000 for his daughter's freshman year at a school that isn't
even
considered that expensive. I understand wanting your daughter to attend a good school
but
maybe consider this option just to lower the stress all the way around.
Mom of nonacademic twins
Your daughter may be getting ''average'' grades because she is not in
the right high school for her. If she was in a small school she might
get enough individual attention to get her gpa up to a 3.0 - enough to
get into a Cal State without the SAT. I recommend Envision Academy in
Oakland, although there are other small charter schools in the
community where she will be seen as an individual and given extra time
with those subjects she is struggling with.
There are some small colleges, most of them Christian, in the
mid-west, that will accept a young person who has shown consistent
grades and who really want to go to college. One of my daughter's
friends is in her 3rd year at one of these schools in Iowa, and doing
better grade wise than she did in high school.
She can always start at a community college. 2 years taking the
basics, and taking advantage of the extra help they give there might
be what she needs.
Good luck to you.
Jenny
There is no ''average'' student. The job of an independent college
counselor is to help students recognize and fulfill potential, and to
inspire them to work on weaknesses so they are competitive in a
hyper-competitive world. A good college counselor will reduce the
stress between parent and child over the college process. A good
college counselor should be able to work with most learning difference
problems, and guide families to schools that will take over where a
parent leaves off. A good counselor will also ensure that the student
applies to colleges that will meet the family's needs financially as
well as being a good fit for the student.
Regardless of whether or not your student works with an independent
counselor, the school-based counselor must be good. The school-based
counselor has access to student records, letters of recommendation,
and teachers. The independent counselor can learn the desires and
needs of the student and family. A counselor should go beyond what a
parent can easily find on the internet or by talking to other parents.
There are many different kinds of college counselors. The most common
are those who took a course. This provides them with a basic
introduction to what resources are available for students. However,
good counselors tend to be seasoned (but not burnt out). Some
counselors are mothers who helped their children apply to college.
There are those who are lawyers and are formal in their
approach. There are those who are licensed psychologists and provide a
therapeutic approach to college counseling. There are those who have
doctorates and have done research on education and students. And
there are those who can recommend colleges based on the faculty at
those colleges because they have served on the faculty of major
universities. Important questions to ask independent counselors
include: Where did the counselor go to college, and what did they do
before they became college counselors? One last bit of advice. The
most important thing is that, when the process is completed, the
student's self-esteem is intact and s/he feels proud of where they
have been accepted. The worst case scenario is for a student to leave
home believing that he or she has failed parents or self because s/he
was waitlisted or not accepted somewhere else.
I hope this is helpful. I would be happy to answer any general
questions.
Wendy Walker-Moffat
I posted earlier on the positive experience my child had in the
college application process, and how helpful our counselor was. I
did not include her name in my original post because she has a part-
time practice with very few openings, and I wasn't sure that she
would want to receive that level of public referral. I have spoken
with her and confirmed that she does not.
While she did a great job with us, I'm sure many others could do
similar work. Here is what I found to be her most valuable and
helpful qualities:
* She knew A LOT about the schools, both in CA, regionally, and in
some cases across the country. She travels to visit schools and
keeps up with their news and stats. So she could give us a very
realistic picture of how they choose and what they consider.
* She really likes kids, is enthusiastic, and radiates a sense to
them that it is doable. She took time to really get to know my
daughter, asked her a lot of questions, to help her figure out how
best to present her strengths. She has since met with my younger
child, and in both of them, she brought out a level of engagement
and maturity that was impressive, which must be related to…
* She puts the kid in the lead. When we sat at the table, she faced
the kid, asked her direct questions, subtly sent the signal that we
were the advisors, the kid was the director of their own fate. Which
is what needs to happen.
Good luck!
college mom now
May 2009
would love any feedback on appropriate(comfortable fit) colleges for
my soon to be senior daughter. Her special needs relate to her ADD,
OCD and resource support. She wants to stay in California and loves
theater, but excels in math and science. We hope some type of
mentoring program will help assist her academically and emotionally
when she is nervous or sad far from home. She has liked UCLA, USC,
Redlines and UCSB. However we live in Orinda and think sometyhing
closer might be better. thanks very much!
N.
Hi, The schools you mention are all really large schools. I would
think your daughter would do much better in a smaller more intimate
setting where she would have small classes and have a good one-on-one
time with her teachers. For that, I think you are looking at private
schools... Check out all the privates in the area. Her school
counselor should be able to recommend some to you. If you are thinking
as far as the LA area, consider Whittier. Or in the other direction,
even though it's not in CA it's about as far on the plane, Lewis and
Clark in Portland. Depending on your income level, all schools give
financial aid and the privates have more grants and scholarships to
give in this day and age!!
good luck.
anon
I work at UC Berkeley and we have a pretty good Disabled Students
Program for students with emotional problems like ADD and OCD. We
have just hired a psychologist to work at DSP in addition to the other
staff. My son went to UCSD; he had several learning issues and
auditory processing, auditory memory. The disabled program only had
about 45 kids out of 25,000 in their program. They refused to help my
son after we had additional testing done twice at their suggestion.
We gave up.
There is a book on disabled programs that colleges offer. It varies
quite a bit from school to school.
Judy
March 2009
My high school senior has applied to a few Ivy League universities for
next fall and I'm trying to figure out how to make an acceptance
decision, assuming (fearing?)that he may be accepted at an Ivy school.
He has been accepted at 3 of the 5 UCs he applied to and hasn't
heard from the remaining 2 UCs yet, so he's got choices. Is Ivy
League worth the extra money? Will a UC serve him just as well as an
Ivy League education? He is a very academically-oriented student, he
works hard and does very well in school. Like most college freshman,
he really doesn't know what he wants to study other than he would like
a strong science/math program. His other interest is music, he has no
interest in organized sports.
We will not qualify for any need-based financial aid (have been to a
financial aid counselor). We would have to go into debt to pay for an
Ivy League school and I'm concerned about our ability to pay off that
debt given the economy and the precarious state of our employment.
Right now our only debt is a very small mortgage. And there is a
sibling headed for college in a few years. So, what would you do?
Was you or your kid's Ivy league education something that you could
not have gotten at a UC? Did your student go to UC and had a great
experience? in either case, in what way? Given that grad school seems
to be a requirement these days, does one or the other make a
difference? If you are also in this situation how are you deciding? I
graduated from Berkeley, but that was long ago and much has changed.
thanks so much
UC or Ivy?
I get asked this question a lot by my students at UC Berkeley. I have
found a lot more geographical diversity at the Ivies. It's nice to
meet students from all over the world. At the UC schools, most of
your classmates will be from homes a few hours from your own. On the
other hand, there's a lot more socioeconomic diversity at the UC
schools. Though all the Ivy colleges try to even the playing field,
most of the students there come from families that I don't think would
be considered middle-class even if they identify themselves that way.
The academics are a push, especially as an undergraduate. The
faculties are just as good, the facilities are just as good, the
available courses are just as diverse. There may be a bit more
negotiability for custom majors or individualized programs at the
private schools. For undergraduates intending on foreign study as a
graduate student, I suspect an Ivy degree has better recognizability.
But not in the USA--the UC diploma is just as good. Not being
burdened by debt as an undergraduate, however, will provide a lot more
options for graduate study.
That's my opinion, of course. I talk with a lot of UC students
applying to graduate school. But I have personally seen a lot of Ivy:
Cornell, Harvard, Columbia, Yale.
Wolffe
I attended both UCSB and Harvard, granted in the late '70's to mid
80's. UCSB was big (14,000 undergrads at the time). I was in a
sorority which I detested, but at least I was able to make some
friends in a smaller group. I also had many other interests which
helped making friends. I felt like hardly anyone was working
seriously (which helped me to be ''the top of the class'' since I knew
I needed top grades and recommendations for grad school). Had I been
unmotivated, I could have just drifted along like many students. I
did have some very good teachers. I had to be very pro-active to get
into the classes I wanted. Some classes were monstrous in size
(Intro. to Cultural Anthro. had 900 students in the lecture).
Harvard had wonderful traditions, a chance to experience East Coast
life with its somewhat difference cultures, weather, etc. The
students were bright and wonderful to interact with. There were
always long interesting conversations after dinner. I wished I had
applied to Harvard as an undergrad. I didn't have money for college
and didn't realize that they admitted ''need blind.'' Even if you
don't qualify for total financial aid, they will do what they can to
put together loans, workstudy, etc. to help the student be able to
go. I have interviewed for Harvard in the Bay Area since 1990. If
you want to talk further or email, please contact me at my email.
kathryn
I got my B.A. from Princeton in 1977, and my PhD. from Berkeley in
1992. Questions of cost aside, I would recommend Princeton (and here I
can't speak for the other Ivies) for the following reason: Princeton
has a long and proud tradition of encouraging their world-class
scholars to work directly and closely with undergraduates; this is not
just P.R., but, in my experience, was one of the best things about my
education there. As a Classics major, after a few large lecture
courses as a freshman and sophomore, the largest class I had in my
final two years consisted of about 10 students. This was an amazing
and wonderfully enriching experience, and has left a deep impression
on everything I have done in my life since. That said, one downside of
the Princeton experience (at least for me) was the preppiness and
snobbism which in my day was still a part of the Princeton tradition.
However, it is entirely possible that this aspect of Princeton may
have changed in the more than 30 years since I have been on campus.
For the above reason (its wonderful academic environment), I think a
school like Princeton might offer a very valuable alternative for your
son to going to a UC School, where, in my experience, some students
can seem lost in its big, impersonal environment.
Another reason to recommend an Ivy League school is the provinciality
issue. I don't mean to sound snobbish about this, but I have found
that many students in California seem to have a somewhat limited world
view. I think this (beyond the quality of the education itself) is
perhaps the best reason to send your son to college out-of-state. Ten
or twenty years down the road, he might be very grateful for your
having had the initiative to have sent him away from home to
experience a wider (and very different) world.
Regarding the last point: New York City is only a 40-minute bus or
train ride from downtown Princeton: many undergraduates take full
advantage of its cultural resources for personal enrichment.
Please feel free to contact me if you would like any further
information about Princeton or the Ivy League.
Jim
I am an advocate of people leaving their home state to go to college.
I teach at Cal, and by far most of the kids I teach come from
California. They are wonderful, marvelous, smart, and I love teaching
them. But -- here's an irony in a community where diversity is so
strongly supported -- there is very little diversity in terms of how
they were prepared for university. They have read the same lists of
books, have all had California history (and are pretty weak on other
American history), have similar cultural expectations, etc. It is
part of an education to move outside one's comfort zone and experience
other cultures, which include other parts of this country. Though I
went to undergrad and grad at two different Ivy League schools, I
don't think that these schools are ''worth it'' per se -- any good
out-of-state school would fit the bill, like Oberlin or Grinnell or U
of Chicago or U of Michigan, etc. Still, the experience of meeting the
other students at the out-of-state schools would be very valuable. At
the same time I recognize the financial burden of sending a child to
the Ivy League. I would suggest to your child that if he wants to go
to an Ivy school, he will have to help with the expenses. If he
doesn't qualify for a scholarship, he should work part-time and take
out some loans to help you pay for his costs. If he goes to grad
school for a Ph.D., most programs will support him. If he decides to
go to a professional school, he will be able to pay back loans
himself, for the most part. It is undergrad that is tougher in some
ways, and I would put some of the responsibility on his shoulders. I
worked throughout school, though I did qualify for needs-based aid.
supporter of distant learning
Don't assume if you don't qualify for financial aid in the UC system,
that you won't qualify for FA at the Ivy's. I have a daughter at UC
Davis, we couldn't qualify for FA. My freshman son, at Brown, was
offered $7K initially but it was raised to $12K after we spoke to the
FA office directly. Having two kids in college helped and privates
seem much more willing to listen to your individual situation. Also,
they seem very responsive to changes in your financial situation. For
example, when the economic meltdown occurred last October, they
announced that they would accept mid-year FASFA forms. If your son
gets into a private school, they will work with you to keep him there.
Good luck to your son.
college mom
We're not in the same position (my son did not want to apply to either
UCs or Ivy League colleges) but I have found the website
collegeconfidential.com to be invaluable in sorting through options.
Generally the threads on that website discourage excessive debt for a
college education. Good luck to your son in making his decision.
Anon
I got my BA in English at UCSB and attended Stanford as a graduate
student. I had a great experience academically and socially at both
places, although I remember saying at the time that I felt that the
English classes I had at Stanford were of the same quality as the
ones I had at UCSB (engaging, provocative, challenging). And in
fact, I never had an upper division class at UCSB with more than 30
people in it, although I did have a traditional lecture class in an
American Lit. class at Stanford (a few hundred people,w/ a grad
student-led discussion section etc...) Of course I had the big
lectures for some of my general ed. courses at UCSB ( geology,
physiology, history, psychology, econ), but I think this is standard
at any college that has more than a couple of thousand students.
Now, this was back in the 80s, so I can't speak to the cuts the UCs
have experienced since then ( or are experiencing now). And yes,
I'll admit that OTHER people seem to care that I went to Stanford...
although in general, names seem to matter more for grad. schools
than undergrads anyway.
Where I went to school doesn't make one bit of difference in my job,
however. They only care about my performance, and I suspect this is
true most places.
- still a public school girl at heart, I guess
My siblings and I did this experiment--for undergraduate, two went to
UC and four went private--Harvard, MIT, Swarthmore, Oberlin. All went
to graduate/professional schools--two Harvard, three UC, one Penn;
subsequent lives, careers, social activities don't seem related or
constrained by undergraduate option. Of course this was a long time
ago--my son is now at Penn and my niece is at UCB--major difference
apparent to me is ridiculous amount of money Penn undergraduates
appear to have for disposable income; the diversity at an Ivy
mentioned by a previous responder is there--including a lot of
international students--but most of them are from very privileged
families.
Of course, the most important issue is knowing your individual child,
and what environment is likely to be best for them. And also
considering realistically the appalling cost/debt burden private
college today represents. I would say my family of origin, which
valued education, but was not at all wealthy, did just fine at UC.
not-sure-it's-worth-it tuition payer
Is Ivy League worth it?
I meant to respond earlier and no longer have the original message
but--I have one daughter who went to a UC and one who recently
graduated from an Ivy. They have very different temperaments,
educational interests, social needs, etc. The one who went to the Ivy
(Brown) had to contribute to cover some of the costs (loans), we had
to take a loan out on our house, and she didn't come home for
Thanksgiving/Spring breaks (some). That said, this is the school she
really wanted and she thrived there; academically, socially, etc. The
classes were exciting--she was exposed to so much. There was a real
love of learning. Her experiences were very rich, made terrific
friends, knew her professors well and had many opportunities to do
research, volunteer, and receive guidance from her advisors. She
developed many leadership skills. She worked minimally on/off campus.
Paying her loans back and some of her financial restrictions were a
bit tough for her (some of her friends didn't have to think twice
about spending $) but she would do it over again in a flash. I am
happy we were able to give her this even tho it was financially hard
for us also.
My daughter who went to a UC was happy she graduated without debt(we
were able to cover her costs). She didn't necessarily chose the right
UC for her--it was too large, too academic, not located in an area
conducive to doing internships/volunteering, but that said, she feels
she got a good education, made good friends, had good opportunities.
She had to find her own way more, only got to know one or two
professors. She pretty much knew what she wanted to study so she
wasn't lost in terms of what to major in. She is now in grad school
and working, paying her own way.
In our case, the Ivy was well worth it for one daughter; the UC was
fine for the other. If we couldn't swing it I think the Ivy daughter
would have also done well at a UC but she definately had an experience
that couldn't be replicated. I wouldn't have done it if the financial
repercussions were too great for us and I hate the idea of debt for her.
Good luck--not an easy decision.
Following up a bit on my previous comments about Princeton, I would
just like to add that, when I was there, there were ways around the
preppiness which was part of the Princeton WASP experience. I joined a
kind of ''counter-fraternity'' right around the corner from all the
other eating clubs on Prospect Street. This place was full of all the
students who didn't fit into the eating club scene: artists,
musicians, counter-culture types, serious scholars, just outright
misfits, etc. So there was definitely a way to mitigate the prevailing
preppiness of the place, and now Princeton has a residential college
system, which may have also have made a significant difference in the
campus atmosphere.
I would also like to add that any small, high-quality liberal arts
school would serve the same purpose of enriched education I mentioned
before: places like Oberlin, Amherst, Williams, Bryn Mawr, Reed, etc.
I seriously considered going to Amherst instead of Princeton for just
this reason (an enriched small-class environment), but am glad I ended
up choosing Princeton, since it was a little bigger, and perhaps
slightly more diverse, than Amherst might have been.
Finally, I would not necessarily go by what a college counselor says
about the lack of financial assistance. It is my impression that in
recent years, top quality private colleges have been making a lot of
efforts to make their schools more accessible to middle-class parents
who are not super wealthy. I would recommend contacting the school
directly, and seeing if you could negotiate something with them, or at
least get more information on possible financial assistance. If your
son is as talented and smart as you say he is, then you actually have
bargaining power, since top Ivy League schools are always competing
with each other for the best students.
Good luck with your college search!
Jim
Ask me in four years if it was worth it. What I can say right now is
that two Ivies understood the realities of California living expenses
and offered very reasonable financial assistance despite our having an
AGI that would look astronomical to someone in, say, Missouri.
A Yale diploma was certainly worth it to me. I'm not sure I actually
learned more but it has always been a ticket to ride for me job wise
and socially. When I've applied for jobs the ivy league credential
impressed people. They never needed to ask for a transcript. As for
cost it is a sliding scale starting at free for low income folks.
Ivy
Two things to consider:
1. Private universities with big endowments can often offer
students much better financial help than public universities.
In the past year there have been articles about how Harvard and
some other ivies can actually afford to let all students attend tuition-free
and in fact it is more economical for them to do so.
2. A degree from an Ivy League school can give you an advantage
in getting your foot in the door at the start of your career.
Once your career is going, job experience and performance
become more important. So there does seem to be a benefit for
at least the first few years. On the other hand, a degree from
Berkeley or UCLA is pretty darn attractive to future emplyers too!
Oct 2008
Looking ahead a few months, I am wondering how to locate
local students (such as Berkeley high grads), who have gone
to a certain college to find out more about their
impressions and experiences. My senior is considering a
number of colleges that we have no personal connection with
(such as Macalester and Scripps) and we would like to talk
to current (or recent) students, if possible.
Soon to be empty nester
This type of research is best done from the OTHER end -
that is, contact the COLLEGE that you're interested and
ask them for students who come from certain high schools
(or the East Bay in general), and the admissions office
will generally be more than happy to have the college
students contact you. My daughter, for example, goes to
Macalester, has loved every minute of it, and would be
happy to talk to your student. You can contact me through
the moderator, or contact Mac and ask for referrals to
students from the East Bay. Colleges are VERY proactive
these days about having their students call/email high
school students.
mom of 2 seniors (college, h.s.)
I'd go on Facebook and look up the colleges you're
interested in - they'll probably have a group, or just
people who list that they go to or are alums of that
school. You might find people who list BHS also.
gotta love the internet
If your child wants information about a college, the best
way to check may be through the online social networking
sites like Facebook and MySpace. Check out listings for
Class of 2012 at the different social networking sites.
That would get you in touch with the freshman class that
was last year's high school seniors. For example, if you
went to Facebook's Chapman University Class of 2012, you
would find my son, who loves his school (he's a Theater
Performance major). You can also check
www.princetonreview.com (you need to register, but it's
free), collegeconfidential.com (registration required, but
free). Most kids are very happy to discuss what they do
or don't like about a school.
Chapman Mom
One of the best ways to find the right college is to examine the trade-offs
between: going pre-professional on one hand and liberal arts on the other
and between getting one degree or going on to grad school.
Here is a good rule to use:
One Degree and Pre-Professional
If student is only going to get one degree--then possibly a pre-professional
major might matter. Choosing a school which has a good business or
engineering program and one that is respected in the student's area of focus
may be important. A good measure of quality would to see how many
employers interview on campus--these numbers are published by the
college.
Graduate Degree Oriented
On the other hand, many students these days wish to attend graduate school.
What most people don't know is that liberal arts colleges are the fastest route
to JD, MD, MBA and Ph.D programs. The only catch is that most liberal arts
colleges are private. The good news is that many offer merit and need based
financial aid. So if you feel that you cannot afford $40-50K a year but your
student is in the top 10% of their class and has significant academic or
athletic talent you may wish to consider these colleges. The main reason I
recommend these is that graduate schools prefer liberal arts colleges
because of the great job they do in preparing students to write well, think
critically and express their ideas in oral argument. If you are able to call your
professor by their first name or do research as an undergraduate with your
professors it makes a huge difference on your student's resume. For more
information about top undergraduate feeder schools here is a link:
http://www.collegematchus.com/related_resources.html
David
Oct 2007
Parents and students can begin their search online for
excellent, often affordable (with merit and need-based aid),
but largely unknown colleges.
The first website to explore is http://www.ctcl.com -
Colleges That Change Lives, from Loren Pope's book of the
same name.
The second is http://www.collegesofdistinction.com - a
project of diverse administrators, alumni, and students.
Finally, those exploring in-state schools can look beyond
UC's and CSU's at http://www.aiccu.edu - The Association of
Independent California Colleges and Universities.
Remember, no web search can substitute for a campus visit,
but it can at least broaden your awareness and start you in
the right direction.
Eion Lys College Counselor
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