Guidelines for 16 yr. old daughter

Our daughter is 16 is spending a lot of her free time ''kicking it'' with friends from school and others who I know are not in school any more on Shattuck/Telegraph and at people's homes in Berkeley. We live near but not in Berkeley. She takes bart and bus back a forth a lot at gets rides from us and from friends. She thinks she should be able to go out and do what she wants with whomever she wants as long as she checks in by phone periodically and gets home at the appointed curfew time. She's a pretty level headed person and has been responsible about curfews.

We have had many arguments about this. I'd like the address where she is and a parent's name and phone no. I don't want her at people's homes if the parent is not there. I want to at least meet her friends.I want some verification of where she is but that's really hard. She can say whatever she wants about where she is. She has already been caught lying about who she's with but she says it's because she knows I won't approve.

I know that there is no way to follow them around. But are there some common sense guidelines others have used to keep their kid accountable? There are also issues of wanting to date much older guys because she finds high school guys so immature. This has been really challenging. We are on the verge of cutting back many of her privileges such as Internet connection if she won't cut off a relationship she has going now with an older guy we haven't met...HELP!! anonymous

15-y-o daughters say we are too strict

Both my 15 1/2 year old girls feel we are too strict. We make them come home before dark on weekdays and by 7pm on weekends. Of course, on weekends, there is always an exception, like if they have a party to go to (w/ adult supervision), they want to go to a movie (as long as we pick them up), they are at a friends house (w/ an adult present), etc. Since it gets dark much earlier now they are really upset and feel we're just trying to ruin their social lives. They want to hang out on Shattuck Ave with their friends at night. They think our concern about them being out after dark.. just hanging is unreasonable. Does anyone go through this with their 15 year olds? Do you let your kids go to parties w/o parental supervision, hanging out on Shattuck at night? Our kids report that 'everyone of their friends have more freedom than they do.'

Most importantly, Berkeley is not a safe city, though we tend to think that it is. Girls here are vulnerable to mugging, assault and rape. The consequences of any of these things to your daugher and to you as parents would be awful. The psychological scars last for years, if not a lifetime, even if no physical injury results -- and it easily can. I've known girls who lost the opportunity to have children as a consequence. So saying, ''Be home before dark,'' is perfectly reasonable, especially for girls as young as yours. It isn't as if you are locking them in the house -- you let them go to movies with friends in the evening, for example.

Next, I personally don't think the Shattuck Avenue scene at night is particularly wholesome, and I wouldn't want my children to spend time in it. That's a judgment call, of course, but our role as parents is to make those calls. Our friends with girls of similar age enforce rules like yours -- and although we have boys rather than girls, we do likewise.

Third, I think you're absolutely right to forbid attending unsupervised parties. I don't know how familiar you are with the Berkeley scene, but it is well-known that unsupervised teen parties can, and frequently do, get WAY out of hand. (I think there have been prior discussions about that on this forum.) Word of such parties gets around with unbelievable speed, not just among the kids in your teens' social set but throughout Berkeley, Oakland, and surrounding towns. Parties are crashed by complete strangers -- often older than and outnumbering the invited guests. As a rule, teen hosts can't control that alone and are readily intimidated if they try. Moreover, alcohol abuse at unsupervised parties is a major problem -- and even if you trust that the party will be alcohol-free, the party-crashers will bring their own.

I've seen all this happen, more than once, to a perfectly nice girl who lives next door to us. Twice, the BPD had to restore order at around 2:00 a.m., and it didn't just involve a polite visit to the front door. If you need further persuasion, call your local BPD Community Relations officer or ask your beat cop what they think. This has been a big enough problem that the BPD keeps a list of problem houses and enforces a ''three-strikes-and-you're- out'' policy. 'Nuff said.

Finally, a suggestion (pardon me if you've already done this). Have a talk with your girls and explain the reasons and concerns that lie behind your restrictions. Also, try talking to the parents of some of their friends and find out whether they are truly as lax as your girls think. Last, in the end stick to what you believe is right -- your girls will thank you when they're older.

Best of luck to all of you! Tim

My view is that if 15 year old girls are asking for more independence, you may be making a mistake not to search for suitable channels for their wishes. If you restrict their independence too much, there may be unwanted consequences soon to follow, or difficulty down the line, when they taste greater independence in college, away from your supervision.

Perhaps you can help them to find suitable outlets for their desire to be out on the town, away from you, after dark -- ones that won't make you too anxious, but will still have the flavor of adventure for them. I totally agree that hanging out on Shattuck or Telegraph Avenues is not a good idea, no matter what they say their friends are doing.

Here are a few ideas that might help you get started. I hope some of them will spark an interest in your teen(s). I hope they will forgive me if some seem ''square'':

-Rock climbing at Ironworks gym (open till 10) on many
nights.
-Visiting SF MoMA, open till 9 on Thursdays, and near
BART, IN THE CITY !!!! Free at least once a month.
-Evening classes at Cal Extension or Vista.
-School dances.
-Teen nights at the YMCA.
-Disco Bowling in Albany.
-Punk rock concerts at I-Musicast, at 51st Street in
Oakland (Parent supervised, no drugs or alcohol, over at
11:30).
-Events at Ashkenaz (there are some teen rock band nights).
-Berkeley Rep ($$$).
-Eating at a restaurant, or hanging out at an Internet
cafe.
-Hanging out at a bookstore... is there an interesting
reading at Black Oaks?
-Evening events at Cafe Eclectia (I don't know their
schedule, so this one may not exist, really...though there
is another teen club on Solano, somewhere).
-Friday night ice skating at the Berkeley rink.
-Punk rock at the Gilman (the fuzz are all over this one,
so illegal activities are scarce, while the hair is wild).
-the teen ski bus to Tahoe (around 5 am till 9 pm, and
about $ 75 a shot).

What limits do you put on your teen?

(1) an absolute: homework, during the school year, comes first (no calls unless strictly related to homework);

(2) with just one phone and one phone line, the need for others to use the phone;

(3) time limits (on school nights, no calls after 9 or10 pm; weekends no calls, received or going out, after 11 pm or midnight (note, as my daughter got older, I moved the times to later);

(4) she must always call me and let me know what she plans on doing before she does it, and when and how she'll get home, or if I can pick her up (I always preferred picking her up so I would know where she last was), and I gave my daughter my phone card account no.--she memorized it fast. Be very specific about what you expect and get specific info from her. This #4 caused the most problems with my daughter, miscommunication between us and becoming a freshman made her wild. Ask her for a phone list of friends--my daughter provided me one when I told her it would make me feel more secure about her safety.

These are absolutes now at 16. I bargain and have adjusted these absolutes as she has gotten older (flexibility without being permissive is the fine line to walk). Don't give in too much, but don't make her feel she has to rebel at this age; be reasonable, don't set a lot of rules but the ones you set, rule with an iron will. --jahlee (6/99)

Afterschool and weekend freedom for 14-16 year olds

One of the new parents wrote, "I am interested to meet other parents who believe T.V. is harmful for children and would like to do other more creative activities with teenagers." I don't feel quite that strongly about TV, but our 9th grader hardly ever watches it (at home at least) any more because of two rules: no TV or computer games until homework is done, and no visiting with friends after dinner on school nights. On the other hand, he's doing more "hanging out" with friends after school and on weekends lately, and expecting to be given lots of freedom. Friday night three of them wanted to go to a party at a friend of a friend of a friend's house, didn't know the last name or the phone number, wanted to be picked up after midnight, etc. After another mom and I said she would have to meet the host parents when dropping the boys off, they decided not to go. But they casually announced they were "going out" (on foot) and disappeared for a couple of hours, not responding to their pagers. I'm curious about how long or short a leash other parents give their kids (ages 14-16 or so) on weekends. They act so resentful and claim to be so embarrassed in front of their friends when we say no "R" movies and no visiting houses with parents not home. My son insists we should trust him more because he hasn't "gotten into trouble" yet (conveniently forgetting two close calls when his bike almost got stolen), that he's not interested in drugs, etc. And I remember my own parents overreacting to what they perceived as the dangers of my own hanging out with friends. Suggestions anyone?

I do wish there were more creative/constructive options for local teens' free time. One alternate activity I've wondered about is the kind of Friday night social dance classes we had when I was in 7th-8th grade. Is anything like that offered around here these days? I read something last year about the club at 8th and Gilman being a place teens could go and dance, but the people we've seen lined up outside it looked a little scary (and our son hasn't yet suggested it). My son said he would join the Y and go work out there after school, but now he "doesn't feel like it." He's in a private school with no after-school activities. Should we ease up on the computer rule so at least he'll stay home more of the time? Anonymous

My 8th grader really values her 'hanging out' time even though my experience and education tell me that there more productive things for her to do. I have struggled to find an afterschool activity that would appeal to her and have some 'merit' e.g. a sport, music, theatre etc. etc. All that I hear tells me how kids without direction fall into bad ways etc. etc. Last year I begged for her to do a GATE class but she finally put me in my place and explained (as if I just didn't get it) that she was perfectly happy to enjoy being with her friends 'hanging out' and that GATE classes were for kids whose parents made them do it or simply didn't have friends. I am old enough to realise that this cannot be completely true but I also hear that she is telling me that 'hanging out' is what she wants to do.

We have never had a TV so that isn't an issue for us. She does do a pottery class on Tuesday in the early evening and babysits for 3 hours after school on Monday and sometimes at weekends. She has a membership to the Y as I am still trying to insist on a sport/exercise activity, but isn't very excited about going. She has gone about once a week but probably spends an equal amount of time in the changing room as in the gym!!

Her passion is music ... the kind that is hard for someone like me to relate to!!! Punk, Heavy Metal. She did go to the Gilman club for the first time this weekend and apparently loved it. It was VERY intimidating to see the 'scene' as I dropped her off but I remind myself that all those unusual looking folks are someone's kid. She also emulates that 'Look" ( the dyed hair, black clothes, piercings etc.) but I figure it is just another stage. Remember when all they wore was Osh Kosh overalls, or pink and purple??

She does her homework, eats dinner with us and is generally a great kid who wants to 'hang' with her own set. We have discussed it at length and have agreed to let her choose her path as long as she maintains some semblance of herself ( as opposed to being a cardboard cut out of a certain identity group). We tried to explain that this time is a stepping stone for the next stage of life and as such is a transient period. If she seems to be closing all doors and not remaining open to other things then we will have to play a different role and interfere to a greater degree.

She gets a lot of freedom but is responsible. She always calls to let us know where she is after school. We like her friends. She knows that if her grades should drop that we will be on her case.

My parents gave me freedom and taught me to be responsible, both to myself and others. Both of us ( myself and her Dad) are adventurous and we hope she will find a passion to pour her energies into eventually. It is not easy being an adolescent but I think that we can only be a guide for our kids. They reject our attempts to force them along the 'right' path even though they also are aware that we may actually be right. They want to make their own decisions even if they may not be the best ones for their long term future.

It is a pity that there are no places for them to go to "Hang out". She told me that they are told to get off school grounds if they are not enrolled in an official after-school program. I explained what the possible reasons for that might be and she understood but it leaves them with very few alternatives. The fact that they do not want to do something that is organized means that it is hard to set something up.

If you do trust your child I think that they really benefit from you showing that you trust. If they accept that the consequences of breaking the trust will result in a loss of priveleges it may work for all of us involved. I hope so!!! It is quite a quandary to kow what the right thing is, as each kid is different to the next.

Deb

Am I really the only parent asking these questions?

Well, it was bound to happen, and I've read in many time here in these notes....my 14 year old daughter asked to go to some friend's house to hang out on Friday night (not somewhere she had been before). I asked my usual who- what- when- where- why questions; I got vague answers. I kept asking them over a couple of days and as I probed some answers got clear while others were muddled. She had to go back and forth between several people to find out who was going to be there, were the parents going to be home, were they planning to go out anywhere else. Then finally I was told that I was the ONLY parent who was asking these questions, that everyone else's parents let them do basically whatever they wanted with their friends, and didn't have to answer so many questions. And by the way, what was my problem

Sigh, I should have learned something by now, huh? I think my questions were reasonable, but am I really the only parent asking these questions? Some of her friends have older siblings so maybe the parents feel like they've been through this before and have loosened up somewhat. I know most of the kids (although not well), they've been to our house, which makes me feel slightly more willing to take her word for it-but sometimes that's not enough. It still seems hard to strike the right balance between staying involved vs trusting everything you are told the first time you are told it. Am I being too intrusive? Are these the basic questions other parents of teens ask and how far do you probe to find out? It turned out fine..... Kathy

No, you're not the only one -- my daughter (almost 15 and a sophomore) insists that I am. We've been having a running discussion. I think I've won out that she has to let me know where she is, but she says she won't EVER be able to go to a party because NO ONE at BHS has chaperones at parties, even in another part of the house --- and after all, since she doesn't smoke or drink, what could go wrong? My explaining what could go wrong doesn't have much of an effect. Nor does the fact that she's gone to a couple of chaperoned parties and had a good time.

I realize that my insistence will probably lead to her sneaking and lying (she probably has gone to at least one unchaperoned party without my knowledge, which is what started the discussion.) But I think it's important to maintain that unchaperoned parties are dangerous and not OK. At least she'll probably go to fewer of them. My question is, is what she says about BHS parties generally true? If it is, I'd like to hear the thinking of parents who let kids have unchaperoned parties in their homes.

When this began for us and our teen, we were innocent and ignorant. I don't want to go into details, but because we weren't firm and didn't ask questions about who, what and when, a friend our daughter was with wound up in ER, and we didn't know what she had ingested because the kids involved were reluctant to tell. Turned out it was booze (bad enough, but nothing worse, thank goodness), but the police had to get involved in order to extract the "confession." We were in shock. Not six months prior, our little girl was playing with beanie babies. Like September 11, this episode recalls for us a distinct "before" and "after" in our family dynamics. Sad, but we all learned a lesson.