School-aged Kids: Cliques & Ostracism
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School-aged Kids: Cliques & Ostracism
Nov 2003
My daughter started K this year, and has at times come home
saying children will tell her ''you can't play'' when she tries to
join some game at recess etc. I don't think she is consistently
being excluded, and I know she plays with different groups of
kids, but being told she can't play seems to have such an impact
on her that I want to help her figure out how to respond.
I know kids probably go through different groupings etc.
throughout the year--I remember an acquaintance of mine telling
me years ago when her daughter was in 1st grade, that girls are
particularly prone to forming little subgroups and excluding
others, and that they can also be fickle in that someone who is a
favorite one week may be left out the next. I hope this hasn't
already begun! Anyway, when my daughter tells me she was told
she couldn't play, I have said stuff like ''well, they may just
want to play with each other at that moment, you could try later''
but that seems so unsatisfying! From what she tells me, I think
she reacts to their comment by either seeming sad or by giving
some snappy retort, which may not help her in the long run! So,
any advice in terms of what you're telling your children if this
has come up for you? What could she say when she is in this
situation, when some kids have told her she couldn't join in?
anon
A really great book to read on this subject is Vivian
Paleg's ''You Can't Say 'You Can't Play.''' It's a fast read and
documents a year-long project in a kindergarten class around
establishing this rule.
Christine
Girls at that age can be VERY mean! My daughter had a more difficult time with
peer issues in 1st and 2nd grade than she has now in junior high. In this highly
academic world we often forget that chilren need to learn how to get along and
how to treat each other respectfully. I used to work in a school in which the
rule was, ''You can't say you can't play.''
There are many times when it is acceptable to limit the amount of people that
are allowed to play in a certain game but recess is not one of those times. I
would talk to the teacher and see if she would support implementing a rule like
that. This kind of behavior is very hurtful to children and should be stopped.
As the adults we need to give children guidelines as to what is and isn't
acceptible behavior. If talking to the teacher doesn't help try starting a
dialogue with other parents. Perhaps together you can come up with some
solutions. I'm sure you are not the only parent to have heard these types of
complaints. Even the person who does most of the excuding often feels excluded.
Isn't that funny.
Best of luck!
Liza
I am responding to your post as both a parent and a pre-K
teacher. My own two kids as well as the kids in my class have
experienced this and our school, at least in the Pre-K-K area,
has taken a pretty firm stance on this issue: when you are at
school, ''You can't say you can't play.'' We spend lots of time
talking about it, on the playground and in the classroom, and
noting that it is different at school than at home. If a child
wishes to join in a game/activity it is never okay to tell
him/her ''no''. I have found that this really helps kids figure
out how to get along with all sorts of people, and not remain in
the same static groupings. Perhaps you could talk to your
child's teacher about what is happening and find out if the
school has a policy or specific language the kids can use?
Melissa
In our household, we have always tried to teach our child that
you can't exclude anyone from play. Unfortunately, I have found
through our years in elementary school that not all parents and
not all teachers support that concept. Some feel that kids
should be able to play with whom they want. Others feel this is
part of growing up. This is so especially around girls and
you'll notice this issue will increase in later grades. Don't be
disheartened - there are many teachers and parents who still
subscribe to ''You can't say you can't play.'' The first step is
to talk to your daughter's teacher and find out their
observations and their policy. Most Kindergarten teachers I know
still take this issue very seriously. Perhaps, its just been
happening under the teacher's radar. Most importantly, don't let
her know about any judgments or worries you might have about how
she handles these situations -just be supportive and let her
know you are listening. Do not let her think that you believe
that she has done anything wrong. At this age - it's still a
learning process. Good luck!!!
Jeanne
Feb 2003
My 8-yr-old daughter has been complaining recently that nobody
will play with her at recess. She says that she asks if she can
play with one or more of her friends but the friends go and play
with someone else. Apparently this happens often, even when my
daughter has asked in advance, say, before school, if this
friend will play with her later. My daughter says that several
of her friends do this to her. She is pretty social but not
very assertive and tends to hang at the end of the line, which
gives me the idea that she may simply be arriving late when
everyone is already busy, but she denies this. She doesn't want
to talk to her friends about the problem, and I don't want to
talk to her teacher until I'm sure that there really is a
problem, but it has come up a couple of times. I'm willing to
discuss the matter with her friends' parents to try to problem
solve. Can anybody suggest ways to approach the subject with my
child to come up with solutions, or things I might do to make it
better?
anon
I will be interested to read the comments on this one, as I
dealt with a similar issue with my daughter's class at the
beginning of this year. It's a class with just 7 girls and there
are all sorts of dynamics and alliances going on between them,
and one girl that was new and felt very left out. I've
discovered the relationships seem to change week to week, if not
day to day and it's hard to keep up. In the beginning all the
mothers and the teacher got involved, but I think in retrospect
it wasn't that helpful for us to do that, at least in this
situation. I think the girls finally sorted it out on their own,
although I believe all mothers made an effort to be more
inclusive of all the girls in the class on afterschool
playdates. You might make sure you daughter invites girls home
for some one-on-one play time. Interestingly, all the other
girls perceived the one who felt ''left out'' as having friends
and not being left out. It became such a difficult situation
that I did some reading about this age group and was surprised
to find out that these kind of friendships issues/problems are
common among eight year old girls. According to what I've read
and the teachers at school, girls seems to go through changes in
friendships and alliances at this age, much like they do at
middle school...something else to look forward to!
Patricia
There is an excellent book on the subject of girl bullying and
''silent treatments'' called ''Odd Girl Out'' by Rachel Simmons. It
is a must have for parents of young girls. I found it riveting
and couldn't put it down. There is plenty of practical advice as
to what should schools do and what the role of parents should be
as well as insights into the world of young girls. It came out
pretty recently so should be available in local book stores and
definitely on Amazon. Good Luck!
Rebecca
I can't say I personally know how your daughter must feel, but
having volunteered with children that age for several years I
know how cruel kids can be. The last thing I would recommend,
personally, is that you talk to the children's parents. Unless
they are physically or emotionally damaging your child, there is
really no need to get so many people involved. I think you
really need to talk to your daughter and help her cope with the
situation. You need to make her strong enough to deal with any
situation that pops up in her life.
Encourage her to participate in the school extra curricular
activities or sports. Encourage her to invite a friend over for
play time or suggest to one of the kids that they should hang
out after school. There are many ways that you can find out what
the real issue of why these other children refuse to play with
your daughter without actually having to play referee. Just be
on the side lines and continue to cheer her on.
Mother too
As a teacher I am very aware of how cruel children can be to
each other. I suggest you go to the school and volunteer for
the day. This will help you understand the class room dynamics.
In addition, I strongly advise you to speak to the teacher. The
teacher may not even be aware this is going on or to what
magnitude. Please do not be passive on this issue.
Markel
Feb 2002
Wonder if anyone could refer me to a person, book, or group or could
give me some insight as to how to handle this issue. I have a 9
yr.-old strong-willed girl who listens to her own drummer and used to
have many girlfriends. Last year and this year her public school chose
to put her in classes away (not intentionally) from her friends. Now
her former girlfriends have become very clique-ish and tell other
girls not to play with her. When I talked to her teacher and the
school about it they haven't a clue what to do other than to
acknowledge it and recognize that it's not uncommon since there are
almost 2 boys for every girl at her school. The teachers seem to be
clueless about how to handle social problems that don't involve
physical violence or they claim they don't see. It's hard to listen
to some of the things these girls are doing. Although she tries to be
a trooper about the whole thing, I can tell it affects her
self-esteem. Seems to me that girls at this age are starting to grow
up but need to be able to recognize & express their feelings without
excluding one another. I didn't expect girl cliques to happen until
middle school. I don't know what my role is, if any.... do
nothing?....just offer comfort to my daughter?... try to give
insight?... talk to the parents of the other girls?... get the school
to do something, but what????? Would love to hear suggestions from
parents whose girls have experienced this (from either side of the
clique) or have had success in dealing with these kind of issues
through their school. Thanks!
If she cares about those girls, you might try including one or all of those
girls in activities outside school so the thread of friendship can
rebuild. If those girls aren't who she wants to be with now, I would
encourage inviting other possible "new" friends to do things outside of
school. Girls can be really brutal. It took my daughter most of one
school year to figure out that the "popular" group was pushing her
out. Then she was in limbo for a while but she quickly formed new
friendships with a group of really nice girls who also weren't "good"
enough for the clique. This new group has been solid and loyal friends all
the way through high school.
Barbara
Dear friend:
My daughter had a similar experience last year, in the fourth grade, in a
much-beloved local elementary school. She (and her friends) were shunned
for practically the entire year, by a troubled little "ringleader" and the
majority of those girls who wanted to be her satellites. Our classroom
teacher was very good at controlling the atmosphere in the classroom, but
no one could control lunchtime, recess, etc, and finally the ringleader
(because of accompanying unacceptable behavior in the classroom) was
removed from the school. The rest of the school year was blissful.
Long story short: the parents threatened to sue the school district, and
the child was returned this fall to her old haunts. We learned about this
the week before school started, and we were very lucky to find a more
nurturing school, with a culture of kindness, and moved. The lesson
learned was that some people in life will act in ways that hurt others, and
we can try hard to change that, but failing those changes, we can also go
where the abuse doesn't exist.
I don't know what it is about fourth grade. Boys seem to do their
hierarchical sorting in ways that are much less cruel. You'd have to
consult a room full of psychologists to get a good explanation for some of
the girl behavior we've witnessed.
My heart goes out to you. It's a horrible thing to witness, and I suspect
that the bullies are -- somewhere in their little lives -- just as
miserable as they'd like to make their targets. Your daughter needs to
find circles of friends elsewhere -- through activities she will enjoy,
preferably. If you cannot instigate change at her school -- and I
acknowledge, it's tough to do -- you might have to weigh whether you'd all
be happier somewhere else.
Sign me -- another anonymous mom who's been there!
Mother of 9-year-old girl whose former girlfriends have become very
clique-ish and were telling other girls not to play with her asked for
advice/help. San Francisco Day School actually hosted a session last
fall with a very brave expert who flew in right after September 11, and
I'm told he had lots of good ideas (and has a couple of books). Don't
know anything more than that, but it's a lead. Good luck.
How to handle girls and cliques,
5 years ago when my daughter was in 5th grade there was a real shift in the
social spheres, and suddenly two factions were formed. Girls who used to be
best friends became enemies and girls who used to be indifferent to one
another became best friends, and the whole thing got really ugly. After
some increasingly nasty exchanges, some of which were initiated by my
daughter and some of which were aimed at my daughter I had had enough. I
was teased mercilessly as a child and was not going to tolerate my daughter
participating in this dynamic on either end of the meanness.
I phoned the mothers of the girls who were most involved and we set up a
meeting at a cafe with us and the girls . We gave the girls an opportunity
to voice their concerns and offer some solutions. And then we made it clear
that no matter what their differences, none of us parents would tolerate
cruel behavior. They didn't have to like each other but they could not
continue with this teasing, excluding, etc. It had an immediate and long
lasting effect. I can only imagine why it helped: hearing how their
behavior had hurt others, knowing that we as parents were in communication,
taking the wind out of the whole escalation, etc. Bottom line is that it
did work and I would highly recommend it.
Several weeks ago there were letters asking how to deal with
girls' middle school cliques and snubs. An article in this past Sunday's
(2/24/02) New York Times Magazine section addresses this issue and
describes a program aiming to deal with the problem. The article (which
begins on page 24 of the magazine section) is by Margaret Talbot and is
entitled, "Girls Just Want to be Mean." It was eye-opening, especially in
its discussion of how girls express their aggression not physically
(although some do) but rather in complicated social/psychological battles
with other girls.
The article also refers to several books to be published this spring:
Rosalind Wiseman's "Queen Bees and Wannabes: Helping your Daughter
Survive Cliques, Gossip, Boyfriends and other Realities of Adolescence;"
Rachel Simmon's "Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in
Girls;" Emily White's "Fast Girls: Teenage Tribes and the Myth of the
Slut" and Phyllis Chesler's "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman."
These should make fascinating reading!
Frances
The NY Times Article on Girls is available online:
Girls Just Want to be Mean
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/24/magazine/24GIRLS.html
One may need to register, but it is free, at least for a short time.
After a period of time, I think one needs to pay to retrieve articles.
Sherry
Jan 2002
I need advice about dealing with my 10 year-old, 5th grade daughter's
sudden change in playmates. Until December, her friends had always
been girls. In fact, she'd often complained about how disruptive boys
were in class and boys, as a group, were scorned. In early December,
she went to a sleepover with the 7 other girls with whom she's been
friends for years and allegedly had a great time. But, the following
week, she began playing exclusively with boys in her class. I asked
whether anything happened with the girls at the sleepover and about
the change in playmates (as they seem connected). My daughter (who
has always been very athletic) says nothing happened and that she
prefers to play 4-square with the boys because they don't change the
rules. I talked to her teacher, who said that my daughter and her 3
friends are "a group of like minds" (e.g., they are bright, funny,
like playing with Legos, are athletic, etc .) and that their
relationship has nothing to do with "the boy-girl thing." That
soothed my concerns, somewhat, until my daughter came home last week
and announced that the girls said she could no longer eat lunch with
them because she plays with boys; she seemed ok about that, but I fear
that she'll now be an outsider as the girls enter middle school.
Thus, my concerns are how to get my daughter to want to rejoin the
girls and how to deal with typical adolescent girl behavior of
cliques, exclusion, etc.
Anonymous
About your concern that "the girls said she could no longer eat lunch
with them because she plays with boys... I fear that she'll now be an
outsider as the girls enter middle school." Remember, middle school
is different. Its just as likely that the girls will be pleased that
she knows boys next year as that they will "exclude her". If its not
bothering her now, I'd stay out of it. Especially in Berkeley, we
should get to play with the people we like playing with -- even if
they're boys!
Heather
Dear Anon,
I remember my own childhood. There were times that I played with
the girls, and there were times that I played with the boys. It depended
upon the particular personalities and the activities I liked at the time.
There is nothing inherently wrong with playing with the boys. It's the
reaction of these girls that is bothersome, and, unfortunately, typical of
some girls at that age. It was the summer between the 4th and 5th grades
that, for some reason, many of the girls grow horns and a tail. They come
back and form cliques, ostracize certain girls, send their lackeys out to
do social harm, etc. It can get very ugly.
It does sound like something went on at the overnight, or perhaps,
over a period of time, culminating at the overnight. Or not. Maybe you
won't know. What you do not want to do here is to instill any idea in
your daughter's head that her platonic play with the boys is for some
reason, inherently not good, and that she should do something ingratiating
to those girls so they'll include her in their pack. Why does she need
friends like that? There is a bad lesson to be learned here. Your daughter
is finding out what a friend is. Should she, then, shun the boys, even if
she enjoys their company, and let the girls hold the key to all social
acceptance for her? The girls may or may not come around. Eventually, of
course, they will all grow up and make some sense of their behaviour, but
they're not about to do it now. The teacher's description of the
comraderie among your daughter and the boys sounds healthy. Why not
encourage it, and take it in stride as a phase of development? It may be a
good idea to legitimize the relationships by having your daughter invite
the guys over for (supervised) play at your house. Get to know the
parents. And if the ostracization of the girls intensifies, you're going
to have to get to know the girls' parents as well. Have you talked it over
with them yet? Suppose that you were to be "successful" in encouraging
your daughter to ditch the boys who are treating her well, and "successful"
in getting her to "rejoin" the girls who are treating her badly and telling
her whom she may and may not like: aren't you teaching her to behave like
those girls are behaving? Chances are, she will begin to look outside the
clique of girls who have removed their friendship from her, and will find
other girls, who have hearts and character. She will get a lot more from
those friendships. And, who knows, maybe those boys have hearts and
character! (By the way, by the time she gets to middle school, she won't
be the outsider if she's playing with boys.)
Tobie
re: ostracized girl that plays with boys
As a "tomboy" (I've heard today's girls say "sassy girl") myself, I
liked competive physical games (kickball, tetherball, dodgeball),
adventurous books, and only played "non-traditionally" with dolls
(lost on an island), and preferred pants (much more practical). Many
of the girls in 4/5th grade were/are into Barbies, frills, and
starting intricate social games (which I didn't understand).
Obviously, the boys were MUCH more interesting to me and eventually I
found myself to be different from most of the girls (and
ostracized). And yes, being "different" continued in middle school
(though I didn't play with boys anymore) and I was ostracized even
more. What I learned (and what I think you should help your daughter
with) is that 1) learning to like and respect yourself as yourself is
core to becoming a mature, responsible, grounded human being -
changing who you are to fit in not only doesn't work, but you end up
not liking yourself either; 2) I! F ! you're an outsider, NOTHING you
can do will make you in the in group - if you try you'll just end up a
lackey forced to do the bidding of the leaders in order to be allowed
on the fringes; 3) ONE true friend is all you need (and that can be
another "different" kid of your own or different sex, a family member,
a kid you know from outside school - faith based institution, sports,
etc., or even the friendship of a pet or books) and 4) by high school
most kids are beyond the "in" group stuff and are finding friends
based on mutual interests - so "hang in there" and 5) in the end, the
"sassy" girls grow up to be the most interesting (to other women and
men).
Anonymous
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