Third grade girls mean? or am I overreacting?

I want to check something out with the group and see if I am overreacting or if this is the beginning of ''Mean Girl'' exclusion.

My daughter is in third grade in a public elementary school. There is a group of four third grade girls, with one girl being more dominant, another being second in line and two others who ''hang out'' together. The girls do not play with anyone else.

When I was taking my daughter to school one morning we were talking to one of the girls (one of the hang out girls) before the others arrived at school about summer plans, laughing about camp, and flying alone on a plane. The dominate girl of the group arrived, grabbed the arm of her friend, pulled her away and both girls looked back several times, pointed and laughed. At first my daughter didn't react, then she pulled her knees to her chin.

Eventually another friend of my daughter came over and started to talk to us. By that time the other two girls joined the group and all four were looking over, pointing and laughing.

When I mentioned it to the teacher, she said it was just friends having fun and being with their group. I felt it was the beginning of the ''mean girls'' we have in fifth grade who taunt less popular girls and their parents.

I should also mention that this is a sensitive subject because several of the mothers of the group of girls give a lot of time and money to the school.

Opinions please. Sensitive Mom or Mean Girls or Combination?

Your child deserves to be in a safe environment that provides them with dignity and respect, and you deserve to know that they are in such an educational setting. If the Bullies are allowed to ''reign'' they are also being given the wrong message and will suffer. Stand up and say something and do not take NO for an answer and do not allow anyone to tell you your child is too sensitive and should toughen up.

I suggest the book ''Say Something'' by Peggy Moss for both you and your child. Been There & It's A Very Sad & Scary Place

When we were young - and I just turned 40 - there were ''school fights'' after school, nothing too serious but yes kids would ''call you down''. Then, the next day usually, everyone was back to being friends. It wasn't the best part of our lives but something that kids did and learned from (hopefully!). I know that nowadays fights can get more violent though this is not the norm. But, girls hanging out with their friends, not being sure how to react around others who are ''not'', laughing and seeming to laugh at you (when really they may not be), this is all something to just learn from. Talk with your daughter and teach her how to respect herself and how to hold her head up high; but you can't protect her from this. It will do her no good when she gets older and realizes there are a lot of ''mean'' people in the world.

And your assumption that they may be mean because they have more money - is that so wrong that the families have more money? Do you really think the families flaunt this and tell their children that they are better off than you? Probably not. Probably these families help support your school. Probably you are being too sensitive. there are things your kids have to learn to accept

Preschool cliques and ostracism

I'm in an unsettling situation at my daughter's preschool. Unfortunately, my daughter really admires the queen bee of the school. I don't use this term indiscriminately--she truly is a 4-year-old excluding, snobby, snubbing mean girl. Examples of this child's behavior include telling my daughter that she isn't her friend (only the friend of two other children in the preschool) and she doesn't want to play with her; when my daughter goes to show her something cool, like her new tights, she rolls her eyes and says, ''so what??''; and she has barked at kids on the play structure and got her two friends to join in (the other two kids are actually sweet, but follow her every command) in an attempt to intimidate everyone. I wish my daughter didn't want to be her friend!!!

Complicating the scenario, I am on the board with the girl's parent and actually get along quite nicely with the parent, though we don't know one another well. This parent is generous with time and money at the school and is deservedly adored by the directors. Time and again, the senior director has glossed over this child's behavior.

I don't want to single out my daughter for even more exclusion. I have turned over the problem in my head, and I fear that any action I take will be met with weariness, or worse, defensiveness. After all, the adults in this child's life can't make her be friends with other children, right? Also adding to the problem, my child is shy and strong-willed all at once. We are working with her, but she can fly off the handle (she's 3) when something goes awry in her life. I own up to the fact that this behavior may have led to the exclusion, but it is just the mean-spirited attitude of this girl that is driving me nuts. Is there anything to be done? Odd Girl Out? Not on my watch!

Here's my two cents (since you asked). First off, kids have all sorts of social behavior on the playground and what they report later on is usually very...well...one-sided. Also, it's an important part of social development, that is, to learn to handle social situations. So let them be, or talk to her about how she could deal with her own feelings. Just as an aside, last year (much to my embarassment) I went to a teacher about one of these playground situations only to discover that the report I had gotten from my child was completely skewed. In fact, my child had been bothering a younger child for about 3 months (while reporting the opposite). Good luck anon

Kindergarten girls saying "You can't play"

My daughter started K this year, and has at times come home saying children will tell her ''you can't play'' when she tries to join some game at recess etc. I don't think she is consistently being excluded, and I know she plays with different groups of kids, but being told she can't play seems to have such an impact on her that I want to help her figure out how to respond.

I know kids probably go through different groupings etc. throughout the year--I remember an acquaintance of mine telling me years ago when her daughter was in 1st grade, that girls are particularly prone to forming little subgroups and excluding others, and that they can also be fickle in that someone who is a favorite one week may be left out the next. I hope this hasn't already begun! Anyway, when my daughter tells me she was told she couldn't play, I have said stuff like ''well, they may just want to play with each other at that moment, you could try later'' but that seems so unsatisfying! From what she tells me, I think she reacts to their comment by either seeming sad or by giving some snappy retort, which may not help her in the long run! So, any advice in terms of what you're telling your children if this has come up for you? What could she say when she is in this situation, when some kids have told her she couldn't join in? anon

Playmates ostracizing 8-year-old girl

My 8-yr-old daughter has been complaining recently that nobody will play with her at recess. She says that she asks if she can play with one or more of her friends but the friends go and play with someone else. Apparently this happens often, even when my daughter has asked in advance, say, before school, if this friend will play with her later. My daughter says that several of her friends do this to her. She is pretty social but not very assertive and tends to hang at the end of the line, which gives me the idea that she may simply be arriving late when everyone is already busy, but she denies this. She doesn't want to talk to her friends about the problem, and I don't want to talk to her teacher until I'm sure that there really is a problem, but it has come up a couple of times. I'm willing to discuss the matter with her friends' parents to try to problem solve. Can anybody suggest ways to approach the subject with my child to come up with solutions, or things I might do to make it better? anon

9-year-old daughter is being shunned by her friends

Wonder if anyone could refer me to a person, book, or group or could give me some insight as to how to handle this issue. I have a 9 yr.-old strong-willed girl who listens to her own drummer and used to have many girlfriends. Last year and this year her public school chose to put her in classes away (not intentionally) from her friends. Now her former girlfriends have become very clique-ish and tell other girls not to play with her. When I talked to her teacher and the school about it they haven't a clue what to do other than to acknowledge it and recognize that it's not uncommon since there are almost 2 boys for every girl at her school. The teachers seem to be clueless about how to handle social problems that don't involve physical violence or they claim they don't see. It's hard to listen to some of the things these girls are doing. Although she tries to be a trooper about the whole thing, I can tell it affects her self-esteem. Seems to me that girls at this age are starting to grow up but need to be able to recognize & express their feelings without excluding one another. I didn't expect girl cliques to happen until middle school. I don't know what my role is, if any.... do nothing?....just offer comfort to my daughter?... try to give insight?... talk to the parents of the other girls?... get the school to do something, but what????? Would love to hear suggestions from parents whose girls have experienced this (from either side of the clique) or have had success in dealing with these kind of issues through their school. Thanks!

Long story short: the parents threatened to sue the school district, and the child was returned this fall to her old haunts. We learned about this the week before school started, and we were very lucky to find a more nurturing school, with a culture of kindness, and moved. The lesson learned was that some people in life will act in ways that hurt others, and we can try hard to change that, but failing those changes, we can also go where the abuse doesn't exist.

I don't know what it is about fourth grade. Boys seem to do their hierarchical sorting in ways that are much less cruel. You'd have to consult a room full of psychologists to get a good explanation for some of the girl behavior we've witnessed.

My heart goes out to you. It's a horrible thing to witness, and I suspect that the bullies are -- somewhere in their little lives -- just as miserable as they'd like to make their targets. Your daughter needs to find circles of friends elsewhere -- through activities she will enjoy, preferably. If you cannot instigate change at her school -- and I acknowledge, it's tough to do -- you might have to weigh whether you'd all be happier somewhere else.

Sign me -- another anonymous mom who's been there!

5 years ago when my daughter was in 5th grade there was a real shift in the social spheres, and suddenly two factions were formed. Girls who used to be best friends became enemies and girls who used to be indifferent to one another became best friends, and the whole thing got really ugly. After some increasingly nasty exchanges, some of which were initiated by my daughter and some of which were aimed at my daughter I had had enough. I was teased mercilessly as a child and was not going to tolerate my daughter participating in this dynamic on either end of the meanness.

I phoned the mothers of the girls who were most involved and we set up a meeting at a cafe with us and the girls . We gave the girls an opportunity to voice their concerns and offer some solutions. And then we made it clear that no matter what their differences, none of us parents would tolerate cruel behavior. They didn't have to like each other but they could not continue with this teasing, excluding, etc. It had an immediate and long lasting effect. I can only imagine why it helped: hearing how their behavior had hurt others, knowing that we as parents were in communication, taking the wind out of the whole escalation, etc. Bottom line is that it did work and I would highly recommend it.

The article also refers to several books to be published this spring: Rosalind Wiseman's "Queen Bees and Wannabes: Helping your Daughter Survive Cliques, Gossip, Boyfriends and other Realities of Adolescence;" Rachel Simmon's "Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls;" Emily White's "Fast Girls: Teenage Tribes and the Myth of the Slut" and Phyllis Chesler's "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman."

These should make fascinating reading! Frances

One may need to register, but it is free, at least for a short time. After a period of time, I think one needs to pay to retrieve articles. Sherry

10-year-old's sudden change in playmates

I need advice about dealing with my 10 year-old, 5th grade daughter's sudden change in playmates. Until December, her friends had always been girls. In fact, she'd often complained about how disruptive boys were in class and boys, as a group, were scorned. In early December, she went to a sleepover with the 7 other girls with whom she's been friends for years and allegedly had a great time. But, the following week, she began playing exclusively with boys in her class. I asked whether anything happened with the girls at the sleepover and about the change in playmates (as they seem connected). My daughter (who has always been very athletic) says nothing happened and that she prefers to play 4-square with the boys because they don't change the rules. I talked to her teacher, who said that my daughter and her 3 friends are "a group of like minds" (e.g., they are bright, funny, like playing with Legos, are athletic, etc .) and that their relationship has nothing to do with "the boy-girl thing." That soothed my concerns, somewhat, until my daughter came home last week and announced that the girls said she could no longer eat lunch with them because she plays with boys; she seemed ok about that, but I fear that she'll now be an outsider as the girls enter middle school.

Thus, my concerns are how to get my daughter to want to rejoin the girls and how to deal with typical adolescent girl behavior of cliques, exclusion, etc. Anonymous

It does sound like something went on at the overnight, or perhaps, over a period of time, culminating at the overnight. Or not. Maybe you won't know. What you do not want to do here is to instill any idea in your daughter's head that her platonic play with the boys is for some reason, inherently not good, and that she should do something ingratiating to those girls so they'll include her in their pack. Why does she need friends like that? There is a bad lesson to be learned here. Your daughter is finding out what a friend is. Should she, then, shun the boys, even if she enjoys their company, and let the girls hold the key to all social acceptance for her? The girls may or may not come around. Eventually, of course, they will all grow up and make some sense of their behaviour, but they're not about to do it now. The teacher's description of the comraderie among your daughter and the boys sounds healthy. Why not encourage it, and take it in stride as a phase of development? It may be a good idea to legitimize the relationships by having your daughter invite the guys over for (supervised) play at your house. Get to know the parents. And if the ostracization of the girls intensifies, you're going to have to get to know the girls' parents as well. Have you talked it over with them yet? Suppose that you were to be "successful" in encouraging your daughter to ditch the boys who are treating her well, and "successful" in getting her to "rejoin" the girls who are treating her badly and telling her whom she may and may not like: aren't you teaching her to behave like those girls are behaving? Chances are, she will begin to look outside the clique of girls who have removed their friendship from her, and will find other girls, who have hearts and character. She will get a lot more from those friendships. And, who knows, maybe those boys have hearts and character! (By the way, by the time she gets to middle school, she won't be the outsider if she's playing with boys.) Tobie