Boys in Women's Locker Room at the Pool

For the past few summers I have brought my son with me into the women's locker room at King pool when he gets ready for his swim classes. This year he is seven and they have a rule that 7 year olds *must* use the room corresponding with their sex. We were recently barred from a family swim because I wasn't willing to let him go into the men's locker room alone. My first thought was ''are these people crazy?'' The man working there said my son had to go in alone and they weren't required to supervise him. I'm considering giving him swim lessons elsewhere this summer and am wondering a couple of things: 1. is this a rule at most public pools? 2. is this legal? who is legally responsible for my *unsupervised* minor child should he god forbid get hurt or victimized in the locker room?( I'm guessing since I signed a waiver when signing him up for swim classes that the person responsible would be *me*. --and thus I should be the one watching him) 3. Is there a way to get around this rule at king? --can I refuse to sign the waiver and still take him to swim? 4. what could the legal basis for this possibly be? I'm justified, don't you think? I think my son would prefer to go himself but it's one thing for him to go in a public men's bathroom with me waiting outside and checking on him and yet *another* for me to expect his safety in an unsupervised public locker room situation where *any* male, whether child, teenager or adult, could be in there with him, changing clothes and showering. Even if I weren't worried about sex offenders, what if he slips in the shower? what if there is an altercation w/ another boy? That doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. I'm a pretty relaxed parent about most things, but I'm definitely not willing to let him go into a men's locker room alone. I guess I may be finding him other lessons. I find this incredibly unfair. concerned mom

And as a side note, as a woman, I would be very uncomfortable changing in the locker room with your seven year old son in there looking on. Not to be rude, but you know, it's not ALL about you and your son. ANON

Not to belittle your concern, since I don't have a son and so have never had this problem, I think that maybe you are building up your worries too much. I think at 7, a child is ready for this. I know it is probably hard to let go a bit and trust him in this situation, but I really think it is quite safe. It's not like he is not within ear shot of you. Stay by the door and let him know you will be listening. You can call to him to ask if he is ok. You are worried he might slip in the shower. Well, he might slip on the playground, he might slip in the bathroom at home, he might slip getting out of bed in the morning. He will be ok. You are worried that he might have trouble with some other boys in the locker room. Again, this is something he is likely to encounter (and probably already has) at school, at the playground, etc. If an actual brawl broke out, you would hear it from outside the door. As far as sexual predators, you can warn him about danger signs (but try not to make him paranoid about any man in the locker room). I would imagine that the common MO of a predator of a young child would be to make friends with them first, and so you would obviously see if that was developing since you will be waiting for him right outside the door. I'm not familiar with King pool, but there is probably only one exit from the locker room, so you don't have to worry about abduction. swimmer

Barring that - many parents I've seen bring their children in bathing suits and take them home that way too, even if wet. Anonymous

The Berkeley YMCA downtown has ''family changing rooms'', so we ended up taking swimming lessons there for several years. At other places where we'd swim, if there were nobody to supervise my son in the locker room I'd have him put his swim trunks on under his clothes. Then after his swimming lesson, I'd just wrap him up in towels and bring him home to change.

I know it seems challenging now, but it's a short time, and pretty soon he'll be old enough to be alone in the locker room. Good luck! - Swimming Mama

The chances of something bad happening are infinitesimally small, while the chances of something good happening are highly likely. Your son needs to grow up, meaning cut the apron strings. He needs to learn to do things on his own. He needs to learn that the vast majority of strangers are in fact good people and when they see your son changing to go swimming their only thoughts will be a bit of reminiscing about their own childhood down at the swimmin' hole laying in the sun butt naked and goin' a'fishin'. A parent's job is to protect their child, sure. But that does not mean never ever letting your child be in a situation that could in any remote way be harmful. Protecting your child means first and foremost teaching him how to protect himself, and that he learns to go out in the big bad world and make a way for himself. In my view, a parent who overprotects harms her child as much a parent who underprotects. Strive for an age appropriate balance.

At 7 I was riding my bike 3 miles sans helmet (people would have laughed uproariously at the idea of wearing a helmet) on busy streets to a public pool back and forth three times every day (came home to eat). We were gone for hours climbing trees and riding bikes all over hell. I now give my daughters little independence tests. I will do something like have them take a bus from near our house in very scary Richmond (not) , take BART to Berkeley, watch a specific movie on their own, then go to lunch at a certain restaurant on their own, intentionally ask a stranger for directions even though they already know the way, handle all the money on their own, but the BART ticket, and call me from a public phone (I didn't allow them to have cell phones until they were older) to come pick them up. True safety comes from protecting yourself, not relying on others to protect you, and your parents need to teach you that rather than take that away from you. sean

By the way, at 7 your son's presence may soon,if it isn't already, make the girls uncomfortable, and soon after that, it may be downright inappropriate. So is that okay to impose your fears on the girls' privacy? And how will your son soon feel having to go with you into the GIIIIRLS locker room.

Also, it is really a men AND boys locker room at King, as the one on the other side is the women AND girls. The folks at King pool are generally very cool. My husband, our men friends and boys we know who used the pool have never reported any problems with weirdos at the pool, nore have they reported floors being anymore slippery than usual (the male locker room floor is probably not any more slippery than the female locker room floor). I'm sure if your son yelled for help, that you (waiting outside the door) and others would hear easily and immediately. Even if he is with you, how do you prevent him from slipping on the floor? So that question is moot, in my mind.

Yes it is legal to segregate the two sexes in this way (in my non-legal opinion). Your unsupervised kid is porbably very able to handle himself in there. You can't watch him all the time. What age have you set as a cut off to allow him to be in a locker room alone? It is lovely that you care so much about him and do so want to protect him.

Hey my girls go through the girls locker room when their Dad is taking them to swimming and they've never had a problem. They just take longer getting ready. Sometimes a parent of one sex will ask an adult that is the same sex as their kid to go and check on their kid to see how they are doing. They have always been fine (just dawdling!)

I strongly urge you to check out a Kidpower class for you and your kid. They do a great job teaching safety for kids (to kids and their loving adults), in a non scary way. It teaches them how to deal with the situations that you sound like you are fearing most. Doing this might ease your fears, might help you give him some room to grow, and might help you have more confidence in his ability to take care of himself for a few minutes on his own. In this way you are less likely to damage his own self-confidence.

So please have more faith in your son and in King Pool folks. It is a fabulous place and the staff are pretty darn good, too. Best of luck in working through this. Anon

Also, I think that most of your concerns about the changing in the men's locker room are pretty far fetched. I have never slipped in the shower in my entire life (just asked my husband, and he says 'ditto.'). I have never witnessed weird altercations such as you suggest between primary age boys who have been in contact with each other for five minutes and have never met before in their lives and are just trying to put on their swimsuits...

Some ideas for you: dress your son in his trunks before he comes and let him ride home in his wet suit, then let him shower at home OR call around to a bunch of pools to find one that has a 'family' dressing room. -just normal, not unfair...

Your options: -- Don't have him change at the pool. Bring him and take him home in his trunks, and have him shower at home. Or have him change in the car while you stand guard. -- If there are outdoor showers for hosing off, have him rinse off outside in his trunks and do a surfer's change (towel around waist, drop drunks, put on pants) -- Let him do it. You said yourself he wants to go in the locker room himself. You could tell him to shower in his trunks then go straight to a toilet stall to change. -- Enroll him in swimming with a friend so they can go in together. Safety in numbers.

We had to do all of the above at one point or another because my son didn't want to be alone in the locker room at age 5. Eventually, he got used to it and did fine. I think 7 is about the right age for him to handle it. From the sound of things, you've probably scared him enough about strangers that he'll be on his guard.

I have been at pools where there are family changing rooms - definitely a great solution. Where we swim now there is a rule that over 6 they go into same sex locker rooms. Last fall when we moved here I protested and the staff let me take him (& my daughter) in the women's locker room (just to change and I didn't have them linger much). Now my son wants to use the men's locker room. I don't want to make him uncomfortable by forcing him to go through the womens'.

With both of my kids I bring them to the pool in their suits (when I can) and take them home wet and put them straight into the shower. I figure I save at least 20 minutes by having them shower at home when I can get busy with dinner or something.

And for the respondents who are concerned with boys staring - I too don't like it. My son does know what he is seeing, he bathes with his 8 yr old sister. They have always bathed together, they have a great time, and they don't see anything strange about having different ''parts'' (they do think it is interesting - but not strange). We live in a very small house and pretty much all see each other. I noticed that he was starting to look but it was not to try to figure out ''what are all those strange female things.'' I think it was what we all experience, not anything about the ''parts'' that we all have but that everyone's bodies are so different that it is kind of facinating. Because of that, I was relieved when he started insisting on going through the men's locker room - but still worried. Since he doesn't change or shower in it I just tell him to walk through quickly.

In response to the many people who said that the chances are so small of there being a sexual predator...my basic MO is 1. With my kids, if I don't have to take a chance, I don't take it. (keeping reasonable tabs on being over protective of course) another concerned & modest mom

Dad With a Daughter Wondering about Restrooms

After reading responses from women with sons in Women's restrooms, I'm wondering what dads with daughters do??? I won't want to take my daughter into the Men's restroom, and at least until she's old enough, I won't want her to go alone into the Women's restroom either! What do you guys do???? --Wondering in Advance

I think the key is to be confident in what you're doing, so that if someone asks why you're bringing your daughter into the men's room, you're not put on the defensive. You can just state it as family policy: ''my daughter always has one of her parents with her when she goes into public bathrooms.''
bathroom-forward

3-year-old daughter in men's shower at YMCA

My husband takes our three-year-old daughter to the Hilltop Y to go swimming, which she loves. She also loves taking a shower afterwards! We want to know if there is an age when girl children should no longer be allowed in the men's lockeroom. He isn't uncomfortable with it, she doesn't care, but the issue is at what age is it no longer acceptable.

So, back to your case: As long as dad and daughter are comfortable (which likely also is influenced by how comfortable the other men in the locker room are), I see no harm in continuing (with vigilance) until it no longer is a comfortable situation. I would imagine that it will not be that difficult to tell when someone is uncomfortable, and therfore I wouldn't make an arbitrary decision -- i.e., one that is not already socially acceptable for little boys in women's locker rooms -- before that time. kb

Dad taking toddler daughter into the men's room

What advice to people have about how a Dad can deal with toileting with a toddler girl who is in the process of potty training? If he is with her all day outside of the home, each of them will have to use the toilet. How should he use a public restroom when he needs to bring her in the stall with him? How should he help her to use the toilet when they must go in a men's room? anon

Many cafes, small restaurants, and same stores have little mixed bathrooms, which both dad and daughter can use (at the same time).

If she refuses to go on a men's bathroom, she could use a travel potty (for example ''Potette'', you get that at Baby World or at Longs). It comes with liners, but you could as well buy a matching tupperware with lid that can be emptied into the canalisation or a bathroom (for #2). The traditional is ''to go behind the bushes'', and clean up like you would do with a dog, but that's probably a bad idea for fathers.

As to bringing a girl into a bathroom with other men in it, I am not sure either. Would the other men be offended? Would your daugher feel intimidated? This all depends on the design of men's bathrooms which I don't know very well.

A similar thing: Moms have to take their sons into locker rooms at the swimming pool until they are Kindergarten age or so. They can watch all the other women naked there, and they can see him naked. I think it's no problem and certainly not a big deal, but maybe other people feel different. Julia

Young Son Using Women's Restroom

My son turned 5 years-old last month. Whenever he and I are together in public and he has to use the restroom, I bring him into the women's restroom with me. He is still a young boy and I am not comfortable sending him into the men's restroom by himself, even if I were to stand outside of the men's restroom. Yet, I am astounded by the inappropriate looks I get from women when I bring him into the women's restroom with me. I would like to find out how other mothers handle these ackward glances from other women. Am I being overprotective? Also, when should a young boy use the men's restroom if he is by himself?
Sabrina

Give them a weak smile and proceed to do what you need to do. The doors close so I cannot understand what their rational concern could be.
Mom who brings her 7 year old son too

I think you may be projecting your own self-consciousness about this onto the other women - I honestly have never noticed anyone staring and no one has EVER commented on this.

In any case, I would think 5 is still young enough to go in with you. You could go by the 48 inch rule at amusement parks.
My son is my baby forever

My guess is the women who are looking at you funny are the same ones who say little boys shouldn't wear dresses or girly shoes, and those aren't the people I'd take parenting advice from. As parents, it's often hard to deal with other people's disapproval over any issue, but if the only question in your mind is whether other people find your decision socially acceptable or not, I say stand up for your instincts and ignore the looks.
DL

I've been trying to decide how old is too old. My first reaction is 8 or 9. I will amend that to, when they are old enough to be embarassed too, but only if they also have enough sense to recognize danger and behave on their own. And I probably will still be waiting outside the door until he is bigger than me!
mom of 2 boys

Seat covers for potty training and public toilets?

I am about to start potty training and am unsure how to deal with using public toliets. All the product reviews for folding seat covers are terrible and I don't want to use disposables. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

Dealing with small children and dirty public toilets

My daughter recently turned 2 so we are gearing up for potty training. While I have a number of anxieties about this, I recently had a real scare. She and I were taking a walk along the Bay and I needed to find a toilet. What we found were a couple of those portable outhouses. Luckily for us we had a ''best case scenario'' in that one was large (wheelchair) and very clean. Even still, I didn't want my daughter to touch anything (I can't imagine that working in a normal sized outhouse) and there I stood staring at a hole over a large vat of human waste. So how do people deal with public toilets, both indoors and outhouse, as far as cleanliness and hole size? I can imagine several things such as carrying a small toilet or even seat along, but we won't always have those. Or maybe holding her suspended over the hole, but then where do her feet/pants dangle? And even if that worked with urinating, I am guessing that for poop she would need a more comfortable seating arrangement. I feel like I should be looking forward to ending diapers but I'm not.
Scared to Potty Train

Oh, also... despite germ gross out and toileting learning curves, you will naturally relax a little as time goes on. Children take a few years to learn how to wipe really well, but of course, you have to let them do it themselves at some point; otherwise you will end up with 5 year olds yelling to the end of the house ''Someone come wipe me!''. At some point, you just do your best and know your kid will perform less than perfect wiping for awhile. Try not to think about it. It is sorta gross. You will also learn to give your HOME toilet seat a good looking at before sitting on it, as aim is not always perfect in children either. Squeezes eyes shut and makes sure they bathe regularly.

Then, use a seat cover, if available, or cover the seat with TP if not. You can lift her up and set her on the seat, and hold her there. Neither of my girls had a problem going #1 or #2 (that only happens rarely, though--they usually prefer to poop at home) while I'm holding them. Yes, their dress or pants might touch the front of the toilet, but hey, that's what washing machines are for...

And I can't say enough about that waterless hand cleaner--Purell, or any generic form of it (Safeway, Albertsons, Longs & Walgreens have their own brands which are cheaper and exactly the same). We have numerous bottles of it all over the house, and in the car and diaper bag. I have a tiny bottle in each stroller and in my purse, fannypack, etc. We are never without the stuff. It makes me feel so much better when I can squirt that in my kids' hands after an encounter with a public toilet (sink or not--sometimes I just want to get my 3 year old out fast (she still tries to touch too many things in public restrooms), so we forego the sink and use the ''special stuff'' instead.) Another tip--scope out public restrooms around town (in stores, restaurants...), and try to plan your trips around the cleanest ones. Heidi

It seems our ''diaper bag'' is bigger now than when my child was in actually diapers because we not only carry the fold-up potty seat, but a spare pair of underpants, pants and socks (yes, they can get mighty wet in an accident). We always have a spare pull- up too in case our son is just too tired to make it to the toilet, has diarrhea, or we end up on a long drive for nap potential.

Good luck mastering the logistics, it won't seem as difficult in a few months. Constance

At what age is it safe for kids to go by themselves?

I was reading all the postings about the Mom & Dad disagreeing on safety issues, and I have a related question of my own. All the opinions expressed adamantly stated that children should never be sent alone into a public restroom. I was wondering: At what age *does* it become safe to send a child to the bathroom alone? 5? 8? 12? Sometimes I find myself in a very uncomfortable position: I have a 3 yr old boy and a 5 yr old girl. The three of us will be at a restaurant, and one of the children will need to go to the bathroom. We can't all pick up our stuff and go, or the restaurant employees are likely to think we've left and to clear away our food; I can't go into the bathroom with one child, leaving the other all alone and unsupervised at a table in the restaurant (I would think this is even more dangerous than sending one to the bathroom alone); I'm not keen on sending one child to the bathroom alone, because even assuming the child could *find* the bathroom there always are fears about what might happen. I usually compromise by walking the child to the bathroom door, sending him/her in alone, but standing near the door, but where I can also see the table. I didn't think this was that bad a solution, but everyone who posted a response to the Mom & Dad safety question seemed to think sending a child into the bathroom alone is a horrible thing to do. So does anyone have any alternative suggestions?

I think the compromise of waiting for the one kid while keeping the other kid in view in the restaurant is a good one. Dianna

Filthy bathrooms in public schools

My daughter has complained quite a bit about the condition of the bathrooms at her Berkeley public elementary school. As we approach the beginning of the school year, I'm wondering what other parents have done to improve the condition of the bathrooms at their children's schools. Any advice on how to organize around this issue? Didn't Berkeley voters pass measure AA or BB or something like that a couple of years ago to hire more janitors to deal specifically with this issue? Weren't there some Berkeley High moms a few years ago who organized and got some results? From what I've seen and heard, this situation really is intolerable and I'd like to join up with some other parents to effect some positive change. The impression I have is that many kids' solution is to not use the bathrooms at all. Isn't there a better solution?
public school parent

I would happily go to my daughter's school a few times a week to supervise the bathroom situation during recesses/lunchtimes. It wouldn't be fun, per say, but having relatively clean, safe, accessible bathrooms is very important to me, as I imagine it will be for my kids too. Heck, I wouldn't even mind doing a little cleaning if it's necessary! I bet if the parents saw where their kids had to do their business, enough would volunteer to help keep things orderly and sanitary. I would! Heidi

2 1/2 Yr Old will only use the potty at home

My potty training 2 1/2 year old refuses to go on any potty other than the one at home. At home, he's great, even getting up from the middle of a video to tell me he has to go. Great, right? The downside is that when we are not at home, he HOLDS it, sometimes 4 or 5 or 6 hours at a time (I know, I can't believe it either). I feel no rush to potty train, but I feel like we're neither here nor there, and I'm concerned about how long he's holding it. Any ideas?

My solution: To carry around a Baby Bjorn potty (about $10) and a ziploc of Clorox wipes (well-marked, so as not to confuse them with diaper wipes!!). I usually just got smiles in public as we went from place to place with the potty in tow. (My husband found it to be a little too crass for his comfort, so he'd stick the potty in a plastic bag.) When she'd have to go, we'd stop in the nearest restroom and do our thing.

Now, she doesn't mind going on the public toilets, but if they are the big industrial ones, she asks to leave the room before I flush, as she finds that noise to be too scary. -- Ilana