Restaurant Behavior
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Restaurant Behavior
October 2003
My husband and i were eating at Fat Apple's (EC) last week when
several *very* small children began to play under our table.
Their parents were across the room and seemed oblivious to the
situation. The waiter told the kids to go back to their parents
as the kids were not only quite loud, but were doing very unsafe
things like crawling under chairs. Eventually, the waiter asked
the parents to come get the kids. (By then, the little ones were
screaming.) The mom came over and as she was taking the littlest
baby (about 2yo) from under the table, said to me very
sweetly ''you don't mind the noise, do you.' My response
was ''Actually, yes I do.'' So...of course, she got very mad at me
and made quite a stink about how i didn't like kids.
Here's the question: How should i have handled the situation?
Should i have stopped the kids earlier? Should i have not said
anything to the parent who seemed to feel that I was an elderly
child hater?
Advice, please. I wouldn't have said anything at all if she
hadn't asked...or if she had said that she was sorry for the
disruption, I would have just thanked her for taking the child
away. i just *thought8 that she was trying to make me a co-
dependent in her kids behavioral issues.
Honestly likes kids!
No, I do not think that you did anything wrong in telling the
mother that, yes, the noise (and behavior) was disruptive. She
asked, after all (even if was a rhetorical question). I suppose
that you could have asked the parent to remove the children
earlier, but really, it was the mother's responsibility to make
sure that her children were NOT disruptive in the restaurant! A
restaurant is not a childcare center and it is selfish and
inconsiderate of parents to assume that children can behave
however they like, at the expense of the enjoyment of other
patrons. I also have a toddler and I expect her to sit and
either eat or stay entertained with the activities that I bring
(crayons, stickers, books). If she cannot cooperate, we leave.
toddler's mom
It sounds to me like you handled the situation well and the mom
was trying to get your buy-in on her bad parenting. Anyone who
would let a two-year old wander to the other side of a
restaurant, even as small as Fat Apple's, is clueless. Don't feel
guilty!
Lori
First of all, I believe that you like kids! Thank you for posting
your concerns. I am a mom of a 2-year-old who can get quite
unruly in a restaurant and we handle it in a completely different
way than the parents you described. (We also frequent FatApples
at both locations so I felt some community sense to reply.) When
our 2-year-old becomes whiny or loud in her high chair or
booster, we take her outside. When she wants to get out of her
chair, we have a rule that says she has to stay no more than one
step away for our table, and if she doesn't want to do that,
she's either in the chair or, again, outside with one of us.
In the situation you described, I would also be put off and
irritated. In my opinion, other people in a restaurant should not
have to be interrupted, poked, scuttled-under, or drowned out by
kids of any age. It's a drag sometimes to have to get up and
leave before you're even half-way through your meal, but that is
what we do if our child is getting out of hand. I find that I'm
annoyed at parents who don't feel this same sense of
responsibility/boundries because it presents a situation where I
have to try and convince our own 2-year-old that just because
those other kids are running around, it doesn't mean that she
can. Before I had kids, I was more sensitive to unruly kids than
I am now. But not dramatically so. You were right to respond
honestly to the parent's weird comment (''you don't mind the
noise, do you?''). Tolerance is a good thing, but the situation
you describe pushed the limits of common courtesy.
striving to be respectful and to teach my child good manners
I'll be interested to see the responses to this one. I think
you were spot on -- and extremely patient. Parent asked; you
answered. I think Miss Manners would hope you did so with a
smile on your face (as an understanding parent of a former
toddler?), but icy indifference would not be a hanging offense
under the circumstances.
Anonymous diner
I think you had handled a situation quite fine. It was just that the mother
was not responsible enough in my opinion. She should not have asked you to
accept her idea about what small children can do at the restaurants.
If I were in your situation, I may have even told children something like ''
Excuse me. It is not safe to play under the table in an restaurant. This is not a
play ground. Come out, and let's go back to your mom.'' I may even take them by
myself to the mother, and say to her that ''I do not think it is safe for those
little ones to play under the table. I also would like to enjoy my food, so
could you keep an eye on your kids please?''. Give back kids, and walk away.
I do understand that it is certainly difficult for small children to be
sitting all the time while eating. I know it since I have two boys, 4 and a half
years old and 11 months old. But still, that is not a place to play.
To me, restaurants are places to eat and enjoy food. Not a play ground. Your
responce seems very right to me, so you do not need to feel bad about yourself.
Mom of two active boys
I do not think that you are a baby hater. I have two small
children of my own and if they were climbing under your table I
would be quite embarassed. My kids are not angels and they
have a hard time sitting still in any restaurant, so we don't
go too many places. I feel strongly that we have to impress
upon them that everyone needs to enjoy their meal which
sometimes means that we make a hasty exit.
Joan
I don't think you should have done anything differently. For one, it's not
your responsibility to parent somebody else's kids. When parents let their
kids roam free in a restaurant it's absolutely their responsibility to make
sure that 1. their kids are safe and 2. their kids aren't bothering anybody.
It makes me angry to no end when I see kids roaming loose in public places
and their parents not even *watching* them. My almost 2 year old loves to
run directly into the kitchen whenever we let him loose in a restaurant, and
I would absolutely never even CONSIDER not following closely behind. And
as for the mother getting mad at you, if somebody is going to ask you
whether or not you're okay with something, they have to be prepared for
the possibility that you're going to give them an answer they're not entirely
happy with.
Jill
It can be hard taking small kids to restaurants, and since
Fat Apples is such a kid friendly place, lots of parents of
young kids do sort of let their guard down. Still, the situation
you describe seems really over the top. The thing that
seems most difficult in this situation is that the kids were
actually under your table and the parents didn't mind. That
would bother me, too. The mother's question to you sounds
like a request to let her off the hook. You didn't. No wonder
she was angry. But I don't think you were out of line at all.
anon
Hi there! First, let me say that I have a very energetic 22
month-old boy whom I take to restautants and will not allow to
run around and inconvenience anyone else. If he can't sit still
after repeated attempts to make him behave, we leave (has almost
never happened).
Now, let me say, good for you for responding the way you did. My
sister-in-law and her husband (wonderful people whom I love
dearly) were a little that way (though not as extreme as letting
their kids play under someone's table!). They somehow seemed to
believe that their kids were cute and everyone else would not
mind entertaining and babysitting them in restaurants. It is very
impolite behavior and a very poor example for the kids.
This woman assumed that by saying what she did, the entire
episode was somehow made acceptable and normal. There is also
this unrealistic thinking that my sis-in-law seemed to have (and
maybe this woman too) that if people minded they would say
something. However, we all know that this is not usually the case
as people are generally non-confrontational in these situations
and should not have to be put in a situation that makes them
uncomfortable.
The only way people learn is when someone actually says something
- like you did. I think what you did was brave as most people
would have responded that they didn't mind even if they did. I
don't know if this situation could have been handled any
differently - maybe calling the waiter right from the start?
Restaurants For All!
I have a feeling you're going to get a flood of responses, all
of which will support you (it'll be interesting to read any
responses that don't), but I can't help jumping in and
responding. I've always loved being around kids, and am now a
mom of a 16 month old. However, parents who allow their
children to run around restaurants being disruptive is a big
pet peeve of mine -- and I will never allow my son to behave
that way! You can like children and still think their parents
should be teaching them safe and appropriate behavior -- and as
you said, young children wandering around a restaurant are a
safety hazard. Although I've never seen a waiter actually
collide with a young child, I've seen some close calls. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that people
carrying trays of hot food and people who are less than 3 feet
tall are not a good combination! Even if they're not doing
anything unsafe, it's not ok to allow your kids to disturb
other diners. Part of the job of parents is to teach kids
appropriate behavior, and crawling around under the tables in a
restaurant is clearly not appropriate.
If anything, you were far more tolerant than I would have
been. As soon as the children started playing under my table,
I would have been looking for their parents and asking them to
bring their kids back to their table. Thankfully, I haven't
had to deal with a situation exactly like the one you
described, but I think you behaved reasonably and the mother of
those kids did not.
Diane
Your answer was perfectly acceptable, though the mom's response
was anything but acceptable. The simple fact that this woman had
to be told by the waiter to corral her kids should have given
her an indication that she needed to correct the situation as
quickly and as quietly as possible. Don't feel as if you came
off as a kid hating elder...this woman will, no doubt, come
across many more people who, when asked, will tell her that her
kids need a bit of discipine. You should not feel guilty for
honestly answering the question.
Bennett
I found your post amazing! Some parents let their small kids
play under YOUR table on the other side of the restaurant, and
then they got upset when you weren't thrilled? I don't think
you need to feel apologetic about making it clear that you don't
need someone else's toddlers under your table during breakfast.
I have two small kids and sometimes they escape from our
immediate control, but we make an effort to keep them fairly
well corralled because, frankly, it is our view that other
people don't come to restaurants to interact at length and on
fairly intimate terms with our small children. And while I also
think that people without young kids need to understand (or
remember) that it can be difficult to control kids in public,
and have a little sympathy with harried parents, it sounds like
your expectations were reasonable. I think your response was
fine, perfectly appropriate, and after all, she ASKED. You
would also have been within your rights, in my view, to extract
the kids from under the table and return them to the parents
much earlier in the process. That mom had no call to get angry,
but should simply have apologized to you for any inconvenience.
And perhaps she shouldn't ask questions to which she doesn't
really want an answer.
Wendy
I absolutely support your honest response to the mother of the
small children. As the mother of a 2 year old who regularly eats
in restaurants, I am apalled by the behavior I see going
unchecked. I hold the parents fully responsible for not doing
their job and feel sorry for children who have so few guidelines
about what constitutes appropriate public behavior. I feel that
it is my responsibility to teach my child how to behave in a
restaurant and if he is not capable of handling sitting quietly
and NOT DISTURBING other diners, I need to remove him from the
situation, not ask others to endure it. Restaurants, no matter
how kid-friendly, are not playgrounds where running around and
yelling is acceptable. I'm not saying that my child is always
perfect in a restaurant, but it is my job to decide that he is
disturbing others and ask for my meal ''to go.''
Trying to be Considerate Mom
Please, oh please, do not let this woman's insensitivity and
inappropriate anger make you feel badly about yourself. You
would not cough on her food or talk loudly on your cell phone or
do anything else to ruin her meal so why should be be allowed to
do the same thing to you? And then to get mad at you for not
being thrilled about it is unbelievably nervvy. Personally, it
sounds like you handled it very gently. I adore children but
would not be so quiet if I was forced to have them under my
table while eating. I believe you that you are not a child
hater!
Elizabeth
NO, you did not do anything wrong. I have two kids myself and
love kids, but I would have done what you did. Whenever I am out
with my kids, I am very sensitive to others who may like kids but
would like to be left alone (my fantasy!). And those who may not
like kids too. Also,kids playing in restaraunts under the table
etc. is dangerous! If that woman wanted to eat out without
having to deal with her kids, she should have called a babysitter!
Hilary
I have a 2 1/2 year old and I would NEVER allow her to play
under someone else's table when their eating at the restaurant.
This person obviously expects that her very relaxed style of
parenting should be observed (and participated) by all - She is
WRONG. Yes, kids fuss or cry or spill their drink but besides
the noise and mess issues (Fat Apples is not a quiet place
anyway and the mess usually confined to their own table) your
personal space should not have been taken over AND the parent
should have retrieved their child immediately, without having to
be asked to do so.
As for the comment: Maybe you could have been more diplomatic
(the tone it was said cannot be heard in a posting), however, if
she didn't want to know, she should not have asked.
Anon
More power to you! I have 3 young sons and we eat out with
them 1 - 2 times a week. And I would find the behavior you
described completely unacceptable in my own or other's
children. You were absolutely right to answer her probably
rhetorical question honestly. Unfortunately my experience is
that people who behave as she did don't really care what
others think and certainly would not recognize any fault on
her part.
Still cares about manners
I wouldn't worry about it. This mom sounded like she just wanted
you to say it wasn't a problem. Your only other choice would have
been to say it wasn't a problem, or to say something like,
''normally it wouldn't bother me, but we were trying to get
through a pretty difficult conversation..'' Which maybe you
could say if it hadn't been bugging you through your meal. But
it's not your problem if the parents can't control their kids,
and if they ask the question and don't like what they hear.
Personally, I would have asked the parent to come get the kid
immediately, maybe asking the kid nicely if they could play under
their parents' table. But if it troubles you to get the response
that you got, next time maybe you should lie nicely!
anon
I just wanted to chime in on your posting about restaurant
behavior. It is never okay to let a child wander around a
restaurant. For safety reasons alone, workers carry hot food,
liquid in glass-which if spilled or broken on ANYONE would become
a large problem for all concerned.
When my child was 2 ''restauranting'' became a challenge, if he was
under my table, that would work for a time, but any wandering,
required immediate removal outside to walk and wander. I was
aghast to see that someone was offended because you were
''inconvenienced'' by her unsupervised children under you table.
former restaurateur
I agree with everyone else who posted. You didn't do or say
anything wrong. I have two small children and I NEVER let them
run around in restaurants. I think it is dangerous, and cannot
believe how many people let their kids do it. (Can you imagine
if one of the servers had tripped over one of the kids while
carrying a full tray, or a tray with hot food?!)
A simillar incident happened to me this summer at the pool while
I was waiting for my son's lesson to end. There were three kids
climbing on bleachers and jumping off to the concrete patio
below. I was very nervous. It seemed as if the children were
without adult supervision. I waited for the pool workers to tell
the kids to knock it off, but that never happened. Eventually
one of the kids climbed up the back of the bleachers and popped
out between my legs. That was it! I calmly told the kid that I
was uncomfortable with what was going on and that she should go
play by her parent. She left... she, and her friends, continued
to run around, but not near us. The other parents around me all
thanked me for stepping in, but none of them had felt
comfortable enough to do anything. Later I noticed a woman who
had been sitting with her back to the kids get up and herd them
out.
I know that many parents object to others commenting on or
correcting their children's behavior. I can understand that
different people have different standards of behavior and
safety. I know that some people are insulted and feel
reprimanded themselves when another grown up makes a comment
about their kid's behavior, even if they agree. I don't advocate
disciplining strange children, or even interfering, but we all
have to share the world... restaurants, parks, etc. I would love
it if everyone could understand that and be attentive to their
kids so they could reign them in when appropriate. Until then, I
guess we will have to become comfortable stepping in sometimes.
a mom who wants restaurants to keep welcoming children
Last year a friend of ours was in Picante, which is also a very
kid-friendly restaurant. She let her son run up and down, back
and forth, and so on. Someone accidently spilled very hot tea on
him, burning him on his face and neck (rather severely, in fact).
It is not just rude to let your kids climb about in a restaurant,
but it is also dangerous. Picnics are for running around, not
restaurants. And BTW, no one finds your children as cute as you
do. In fact, most of us find them more cute if they are sitting
quietly in their seats....
Mother of well-behaved children
October 2002
I am having a difficult time coping with my 19-month old
screaming at the top of his lungs while in a restaurant. I can
understand that he is vocalizing and cannot usually control his
volume. However, instead of babbling, he screams. I don't
usually mind his screaming and I try to give words to his
feelings. But it seems everytime we are in a restaurant he
screams bloody murder. In the quiet cafe where I like to have
breakfast, other customers are leaving because my child is so
loud and obnoxious. Telling him ''no screaming,'' covering his
mouth with my hand, and blowing air in his face are no longer
working. Am I doomed to eat at home for the next couple of
years? Any suggestions besides eating in noisy places?
I have checked the website regarding screaming toddlers and none
of the advice there helped. Thanks.
Leslie
My child is pretty mild in terms of this kind of behaviour, but
we have always looked at it as undesirable social
behavior/manners that we would want to discourage. Therefore, we
handle it like throwing food, purposely spilling juice, etc. We
don't think that ''vocalizing'' and other euphemisms are fair for
the other people who have to put up with the noise from
screaming. Basicly, be consistent (with whatever method you use)
as you are with other undesirable behaviors.
Anonymous
Having had both a child who behaved like a dream in restaurants
at all ages and two who were loud and tried to run around
whenever they could, I came to realize that my two roudy kids
were trying to tell me that they were not ready to frequent a
restaurant. Either it was too much to ask of them (they weren't
ready to behave in a mannerly way) or they got hyped up from the
noise and commotion that happens in even the most relaxed
restuarants. Your child is probably not ready for restaurants
and it is not fair to the other diners to subject them to his
noisy behavior. It always seems to work best not to ask more of
your child than he or she can manage. Try cutting your
restaurant visits for now (take-out is a good option) and then
begin again in a couple of months. It does improve, but it is
up to you to make it easier for your child (not to mention other
diners!).
harried mom
Simple answer: don't go to restaurants. This is just a stage,
and you will be able to return to restaurants again within the
year, but there's no excuse for ruining other people's dining
experience in the short term. Get your order to go and take it
home or to the park. And when you decide to try restaurants
again, be strict: the first scream gets a warning, the second
one means you leave, whether or not either of you have eaten. 18
months isn't too early to learn to be considerate of others or
to understand the concept of consequences.
A mom whose child behaves in restaurants
My now 21-month-old went through a big screaming phase for three
weeks at about 19 months. The bad news is that nothing really
worked and we stopped going to restaurants for a while -- though
these were our best attempts at dealing with it: 1) Telling
him: ''Ouch, that really hurts mommy's ears.'' -- complete with
exagerrated crying. 2) Explaining: ''Ugh, that really upsets the
other people in the restaurant, see how sad they look!'' 3) We
distracted him with books, cars, coloring, ice, etc... 4) We
tried to be sure he was the right amount of hungry (not
starving, but ready to eat), not tired, comfortable, etc... 5)
Books and other parents recommended explaining that screaming is
an ''outside voice'' and taking them outside to scream. This
didn't work for us because we did not want to go to a restaurant
only to hang-out outside.
The good news is that the screaming phase has passed. (Though
restaurants remain off our destination list as the child does
not sit still...) Bon Appetit and Good Luck!
CKC
Sorry to say, but you probably will need to stay home a bit
more often for some period of time. It just isn't fair to other
patrons to expect them to put up with screaming while they are
trying to enjoy their time out.
Personally, I find it much more relaxing to eat take-out while
my 2 small children play happily at home than to deal with
shushing & disciplining in most restaurants. We've even given
in to my husband's iron-clad rule of never doing take-out
sushi.
The good news is, it's not forever. It may be a shorter or
longer phase (depending on your child) but there will be light
at the end of the tunnel! We venture out occasionally with
great success...but it wasn't always so.
Jill
I remember how sad I was when my 15 month old began
behaving in a loud and disruptive way in restaurants. I
stopped going out with him, because I didn't feel it was fair
to the other diners -- just one loud scream from him, and
we'd leave. However, it didn't last long, and as soon as he
got a few words under his belt we were back to our
breakfasts & lunches out. This too will pass! (In the
meantime, I hope you'll take pity on the other patrons....)
anon
Hi, my toddler doesn't scream in restaurants, but wants to be
more active than most restaurants can accomodate, so I think I
understand where you're coming from. The issue isn't so much
changing your toddler's behavior to fit the restaurant, but
choosing restaurants that can handle your toddler's behavior.
I'm not anti-discipline - I agree you should set boundaries for
your child. But there is only so much you can expect from a 17
month old short of gagging and hog-tying them. I had to laugh at
your description of your favorite restaurant as a ''quiet cafe.''
Quiet and toddlers don't mix! For the sake of the other patrons,
and for your own mental health, that place should probably be
off your list for now, at least when your toddler is with you.
It sounds like it's not fun for either of you anyway. There are
more kid-friendly places, but they would never be described as
quite cafes! For toddlers, the noisier the better..... Perhaps
you could visit your favorite quiet place on occasions when you
have the luxury of a babysitter. And someday you can return with
your then-preschooler, who will be old enough to understand what
behavior is appropriate in quiet restaurants.
mom of wild toddler
Um, don't eat in quiet restaurants with your toddler. I know
some people with very obedient, quiet, docile little children
who keep going to restaurants throughout their toddler
years, but that doesn't describe most kids. It certainly didn't
describe ours. Our daughter ate at Chez Panisse and Rivoli
and Olivetto during her first year, but from then on, we went
to places like Kensington Circus or Barney's, and did a lot of
take-out. If it's not screaming, it's running around, banging
the silverware, throwing food, etc. There's a reason why you
don't often see little kids in nice restaurants. Maybe there's
some magic bullet I don't know about (or you could slip
some valium into the sippy cup), but it might just be time to
readjust your lifestyle a little.
Judith, once again
I don't think you are doomed to eat at home for the next two
years, but you may be doomed to avoid quiet cafes/restaurants
for the next few months or more. Toddlers scream because they
can. Because it's fun. And it's very very very hard to reason
with a 19-month old about proper manners in public. When my
kids were little we either ate at noisy places or got our food
to go and ate at a park or playground. Maybe other parents will
have some clever ideas for you, but I think you may drive
yourself, your kid & other customers crazy if you try to make a
19-month-old do something as unnatural (for them) as be quiet.
Melinda
I agree with the others who've said it's just not appropriate to
take a toddler to certain types of restaurants. But, restaurant
or no restaurant, there is one thing you can do that usually
works magic on a screaming (but not crying) toddler: whisper.
Usually they'll copy you. It's a game to see how loud they can
yell -- and you can make it a game to see how quietly they
can 'yell'.
Ever see a parent scream at a child, ''stop screaming!''? If you
think about it, it's no wonder that doesn't work! A stage
whispered, ''I bet you can't hear me!'' is usually more effective.
Holly
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