Older child with developmental issues is frightening my toddler

So- I have a difficult question and am looking for some sensitive advice. My 19month old's favorite playground is also frequented by an older child (11 or 12?) who has some developmental problems. The issue is that the three times we have seen him, he will come over and put his hands on my son- not in a bad or unkind way, but in a way that because he is a stranger to my son, frightens him greatly. I was not at the park during this last incident, but when he frightened my child, my husband tried to explain that because he was a stranger it was scary and perhaps he should give him some space. The child then introduced himself and said, ''I am not a stranger anymore'' and tried to pull my son out of my husband's arms. Then he saw my son's nose was a little runny and wiped it with his hand, which caused my son to scream. So my husband pulled him closer and explained that he needed some quite time with dad. The child waited about 10 seconds before trying to pry my husband's arms off our son. Once free, our son, crying, just wanted to go home. This time, the park was not that busy, so it was clear who the father was, but in the past, there wasn't anyone nearby who clearly was watching this child. But, I must add, the father watched and did nothing this time. My husband wanted to go over and talk to him, but our son was so upset that he couldn't justify it- and this is what always happens, so there is no good time to try to track down the parents. So how should we deal with it? I know we can just go to a different park, but somehow that doesn't feel right. We are not angry with the other child, just frustrated that we can't communicate effectively with him, and that his parents aren't providing guidance. We do need our son to feel safe. Suggestions? anon

To the person who suggested yelling at the kid to stay away from 10 feet back and looking into a restraining order - this boy is not being malicious, he just does not understand. You can not equate that with being rude. And there is nothing in the situation described to suggest he would become violent. Making a commotion over it would probably just reinforce in the younger child that there is something to be afraid of. Yes, the boy needs to learn how to live in society, but that is sometimes easier said than done.

My 4 year old is very mildly autistic, and has similar issues. His teachers and I have been working on teaching him the difference between appropriate and inappropriate touches for over 6 months and have made no headway. I cannot explain or justify the father's inaction, and yes - I would think that he would want to get involved. However, I have learned not to be judgemental of other people's parenting techniques because you truly do not know what that person is up against until you have been in their shoes. Traditional parenting techniques do not work with non-traditional children. It could be that the only way for his son to learn social behavior is to deal with the natural causes of his reactions (people don't want to play with you if you touch them inappropriately). Or maybe he really is just that oblivious. Again, I don't know what the situation is there, but neither do you. In fact, you sound like someone who has absolutely no experience with developmental disorders.

Conflicts really can be resolved without resorting to yelling at people. Please, just have a little compassion. Anon

Toddlers' bottoms in the water play table at Totland

Enjoying a nice day at Berkeley Totland today... and it's hot! There were a few mothers/caregivers with their children at the water table (supposedly a table meant for water play with hands) and inside an inflatable pool. There were two toddlers IN (like sitting in) the water table, at one time naked, at other times in non-swim diapers (at least they looked non-swim... very saggy and full of water). The children in the pool were either naked, or in diapers.

I moved to Berkeley a year ago, and sometimes I wonder whether it's me or not. Isn't this really disgusting? Is this what happens every hot day at totland? So I have to spend the summer making sure my son keeps his hands out of the water table? I just don't know what to think. Should I have said something? Or is this another one of '' let the spirit of the kid run free'' things that my jaded, non Nor-Cal mind can't wrap around? Looking for some guidance,
Sign me as Yuk

I think parents, probably including myself, have trouble remembering that other people may think their children's naked butts are anything but cute. We had a similar situation where certain friends would come over and their daughter would always strip naked. Then she would sit naked on our couch, our carpet, on our beds on our laps. The final straw came when I found her naked sitting on my bed directly on my pillow! Her parents saw nothing wrong with it. She was 4 years old and we all know how 4 year olds wipe! Like you, I didn't know what to say so made sort of a joke about it which they didn't pick up on then promptly washed my sheets before I went to bed. Needless to say, they were friends who were also inconsiderate in other ways, so we don't hang out with them anymore.

After seeing what you did, I don't think there is any way you should let your kid play in that water table. There are a lot of other nice parks around besides totland that don't have waterplay. In the mean time, these situations just make me try to be more conciencious about making sure my own kids don't gross others out. disgusted too!

When I was a SAHM, on hot days I thought that water looked a bit questionable. I usually told my kids that they could play in the water table at home. My nanny told me that they change the water pretty frequently??? I never thought this. I guess I don't mind if they put their hands in it or if they play with the running water there but I don't want them sitting in that water! Grossed out too by totland water area

From a scientific standpoint, just so you know - urine is sterile so your child shouldn't catch anything if kids are peeing in the water or have pee in their diapers - but again, gross! However, you really don't want your kid playing in water contaminated by feces.

Honestly, I've given up on most parks altogether. If it's not your water table issue, it's the politics of toy sharing - see recent agonizingly long discussion on that - or the oneupmanship (oneupwomanship?) about how organically you are raising your child anon

But if there's an inflatable pool, of course kids are going to go sit in that, so I think you have to let that go. A swim diaper is not stopping urine from getting in any pool. It's only purpose is to not become a 10 lb. weight on your baby, compared to a regular diaper. So if you're sharing a ''public pool'' those are the hazards...

Maybe this post will open a few people's eyes who hadn't considered the other side fan of reasonable cleanliness

Playground bullies (the parents, not the kids!)

We were at Willard tot playground with our 22-month-old son on a recent windy weekend morning when a father and his two kids entered the gates. The son (7 or 8) was bored and started hurling a frisbee around. As the frisbee whistled past small children, I asked the father if the son could take the frisbee elsewhere. The father (a husky middleaged man) launched into a tirade about ''overprotective parents'' and told his son to keep playing frisbee. When my husband told him to show more respect, he tried to goad my husband into a physical fight. My husband did not take the bait. The question is, how do we react when we next encounter him in the park? Willard tot playground is a weekend sanctuary for us. Yet this man also frequents the place and clearly enjoys conflict. peaceful playground seeker

Annoying kids with rude parents at the playground

Is it ever worth it to get into an argument with somebody at the playground? I recently started regularly taking my only child to a fantastic neighborhood playground. Most of the other parents are at least polite, and many are even friendly. There are toys lying around that people have brought and left, and there is an unspoken rule that an unattended toy is pretty much up for grabs. It's been a great place for my kid to learn about sharing. I usually bring along a spare truck that I can use in trade; for example, if he's playing with another child's toy and the kid needs to go home I'll swap the borrowed toy for the truck. Today, another child actually went through my bag and took out the truck to play with. When he eventually took the truck to his mother, I approached her and asked if I could get it back. She asked if I was leaving and I said no, I just wanted to put the truck away and she rolled her eyes and told her son that my son didn't want to share though neither of our kids is of talking age. I took this as a personal insult but controlled myself and just put the truck away. I didn't think anything would be gained by pointing out that her kid had gone through my bag... it just felt like she was looking to pick a fight. Now at the end of the day I feel that she's won somehow and I wish that I had told her to control her kid and keep him out of people's bags, or that I had taken the truck away from him when I first saw that he had it. What exactly is the playground ettiquite for a situation like this? Do you enforce the same rules for other kids that you enforce for your own? Do you ask the parents to control their kids? I never let my son go through other people's bags or stroller baskets, why should I let other kids go through mine? Also, I'd never seen this family before, so I'm wondering why I was so concerned about looking like a bully in the first place, or why it bothers me so much that she disapproves of me. I feel like I'm in the 5th grade again and one of the cool kids just told me that my favorite sweater is ugly and now I want to hide a snake in her lunchbox. Nerd Mom

I've been on both sides of this issue: having the out-of-control kid with terrible behavior and being subjected to the same. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just walk away, especially with pre-verbal children. You asserted your boundaries, got your property back and walked away: kudos to you! You might ask yourself what you would like to gain from lecturing the other mother.... My experience is that everyone has their own tolerance level for playground behavior, so I would just try to seek out people that seem to be on the same wavelength and let the others find their own friends as well. Don't Judge Me Please!

You are not alone. I've often thought that political summit meetings have nothing on toddler playgrounds: the negotiations are equally volatile, and they both require lots of backup (toys, that is). That said, I think the mom you're talking about was a boor. Boor, boor, boor. Her kid was wayy out of line to get all up in your bag, and the way she handled it was wrong. If I'm at, say, Thousand Oaks or Totland and my toddler touches someone else's stuff, I gently tell her, ''That belongs to someone else,'' or ''That's not ours,'' and I redirect her immediately to another one of the toys there. Heaven knows, there are enough!

I think it's perfectly ok to calmly tell another parent that you'd prefer their child not go into your things. Let her eyes roll right out of her head, girlfriend: it's YOUR stuff. One time, at one of these parks, a little boy had been hogging a very popular little cart for an entire hour. My daughter had been obviously crying for it, repeatedly trying to get in there, and finally, after a full hour of the mom totally ignoring (and that's a whole other issue - this mom did not interact with her son the whole hour I was there) the interactions and my exasperation with trying to distract my daughter, I kindly went up to the mom and asked if my daughter could sit in the car for a minute. The mom looked at me, smirked, and then went back to reading her book.

Oh, man. My inner Rambo wanted to chuck that book of hers into some cavity where the Berkeley Parents Network would surely censor me, but you get the picture. We do what we can. We are bag stuffers and emptiers. We are tooth gritters and grinders. We are moms.

See you at the parks. Live Long and Prosper

And from the way you describe it, your instinct sounds about right -- this woman wanted to pick a fight and you happened to be the first opportunity. She was also passive-aggressive enough to make you feel it was your fault.

Unfortunately, I think you just have to eat it. Not to go completely ''Dear Abby'' on you, but it's just not worth it. When a stranger has interacted with me this way, I've either just ignored it completely, made a non-committal ''uh-huh'' (which is pretty passive-aggressive but seems better than a heated argument), or have made some sort of other non-committal comment.

The few times I've responded to show how peed off I am about how someone's spoken to me, it hasn't made things any better....

I bet you're nervous about what to do when you see her again. (Well, I would be! That bottom-rung of the schoolyard feeling is horrible.) But just ignore her. Really. You can be sure she isn't exactly loving being herself anyway. Her being mean to you has got to be a sympton of how unhappy she is about her world. And _that_ might be enough to make you feel better, too :) Not a snarky parent

Many a park day, I have found myself in jaw-dropping situations, which left me overwhelmed and questioning my parenting abilities. So many times, I have discussed these situations w/ my husband, who is (thank goodness)a magnificent sounding board and voice of common sense. Who would have suspected that innocent trips to the park would put you in such a confused state? I think I could most definitely write a book entitled, ''Everything Your Child Will Need to Know in Life Will be Revealed in the Sandbox.''... Required reading before, ''Everything I Need to Know in Life I Learned in Kindergarten.''

I have two young children myself -- a 5 + 2 year old, so I am still in the midst of park scenarios, yet have some experience to speak from. What we have come to ''teach'' our children about park toys is that if we bring a toys to the park, other children may play with them if my children are not playing with them. If, however, my children would like to play with their toys and if other children are playing w/ them, I (now my older child is able to ask on his own) kindly assert that those are indeed my child's toys and please may we have them back, thank you very much. Likewise, we play w/ toys that are out and about but if a child approaches us and lets us know that it his, we oblige by returning his toy.

Things don't always go ''perfectly'' and I believe that to be a valuable lesson as well... Things may not always go as we like. And sometimes it is better to ''let it go'' than expect to share each and every thing precisely all of the time. Because that is not realistic. We just have to try to get along, and unkind words in response to rudeness and selfishness may put you in an akward situation down the road.

Nice children come from nice families where cooperative behaviors are modeled. It is obvious from your posting that you care about park ettiquite and making your park fun for all. Been there, doing that

Also I think you confuse things when you say you want to teach your child how to share but arent willing to share yourself also you said the child was not of talking age so for you to want the child to ask for the toys seems odd.

My last words are relax its a park!!! kids will interact with one another and they will use each other toys don't penalize the child (''you or your did not ask or apologize for the toy therefore you can't play with my toy'') for his mother's thoughtlessness --when faced with such a situation try not to be defensive try to be positive solution solver! Have fun playing! zee

In addition, children have simplistic concepts at this stage. The other mother was right. You (and by extension) your child didn't want to share right then.

Sharing is a pervasive concept at that age. If the child gets the toy, that is sharing. Not everybody wants to share all the time. This business of keeping a toy ''for trade'' is not done.

It sounds to me as though your intuitive approach is a controlling one and that you have a bit of a thin skin. Have you thought of hooking up with an experienced mom and asking her what she does about things?

You will make yourself miserable if you don't kind of go with the flow for these things. If you only want one toy at the playground, only bring one toy. If you want two or three, then share them. This isn't a bad rule, and it's one that children can understand.

You mention that the children aren't speaking yet. So how would the other child understand the social niceties of ''yes there is a fun toy in the bag but you cannot have it. Bobby's mommy wants it to stay in the bag.'' ?

If you don't want children going through your bag, stop them from going through your bag. This is a fine thing to stop a child from doing. You can phrase it like ''ooh. Watch out. There are things in there I don't want to spill.'' at which point the child's mother is supposed to say ''Sheila, we don't go through bags.'' I swear, you can CHART these interactions.

Once you figure out how it works, you'll do fine, but IMHO you'll have to really look for advice and mentoring so that you don't pound your head against the wall and make yourself miserable. It was smart of you to post on this list. experienced mom

More thoughts: Like you said, there are toys already there that ''live'' at the park and having to collect your toys to take them home can cause the annoying drama you described. In my opinion, going to the park is for seeing other kids, playing on the equipment there, etc. If your son is going to play with his toys from home, what is the point? I also think you should not have taken the other mom's saying, ''That boy doesn't want to share'' as a personal insult. That is a valid explanation. Would you have been happier if she said, ''This big lady doesn't want to share?'' The other mom probably thinks you are just as annoying for bringing a toy that you were willing to share and then collecting it at a random time. She probably would have been quite willing to give it back when you were leaving. She was no doubt not aware that her son got it out of your bag which you assumed was safe. Finally, your philosophy of trying to pawn off one of your toys to other kids if, when that other kid is going home, your kid still has their toy, is weird and unfair. It it not to early to teach your son that you can borrow things but have to give them back when the owner wants them. Hands-free park goer

As for playground etiquette -- no, I don't think you need to stand by while somebody else's toddler goes through your bag -- you could, in a very friendly voice, say to the child, ''oh no, that's not for sharing'', (or something like that) as you gently take the bag away. If I were the child's parent, I would jump in at that point and say ''no, Johnny, we don't go through other people's things''

If, on the other hand, you march up to someone and angrily demanded that they ''control'' their child, you will be putting them on the defensive - you're effectively implying that the other parent isn't doing their job - you're likely to get an angry, reactive response. Instead, if you must say something, again I recommend doing it in a friendly way, and assume the other parent just hasn't noticed the unacceptable behavior, for example ''excuse me, I wonder if you've noticed that your child is going through my bag?'' That's if you must say anything at all. Frankly, in this situation, I would just let it go. Diane

Just think ''I'm a duck and whatever this other mom said is just water off my back.'' Think, she needs to live with herself, and you can leave her and her kid at the park. Further, I think it is best to just be really kind to everyone because we're all going through a great struggle--you don't know, maybe she's ill or has a a really difficult struggle. Just think you have school and PTA to look forward to! Duck Mom

I do agree that the other mom was rude when she rolled her eyes but I understand her point. You weren't leaving the park so why did you need the toy? Also, if both your kids are too young to talk how was she supposed to discipline her kid about not taking toys out of bags after the incident was over? My 2+ year old would just look at me blankly if I tried to tell him not to do that 5 minutes after it occurred. Just sayin

This sharing business has gotten out of control -- it's become some kind of constitutional right to use other people's stuff. Just because someone asks for something doesn't mean you have to give it to them. Sharing is supposed to be a voluntary act that you do to make others happy, not because you're pressured into it. If someone doesn't want to share, for whatever reason, what's the point of shaming them into it? Perhaps I'm bitter -- I lost my husband's $30 basketball at the playground because I shared it and wasn't paying attention when the person I shared it with left with it.

I think it's fine to tell the mom, no, I don't know when I'm leaving, but I need to keep my stuff in my bag or I'll forget it and leave it here. She was just pissed at you because she couldn't face the terrible act of taking a toy away from her kid. Not being able to do something because it might make your kid cry is, of course, an excellent parenting strategy that will work out really well for her later on. Fran

However, I also buy into the communal toy idea. And I try to get my kids to share what they bring to the park, in the spirit of having more available for everyone. So in your situation, I guess I would have mentioned to the mom that her son had taken it from my bag, but at some point you need to let these things go otherwise you'll make yourself crazy. And yes, the whole process of becoming a parent-- in terms of social interaction with other adults-- can be frighteningly like being in Junior High. Say what you need to but hold the snakes.

It's natural to feel like we're all back in junior high when this stuff happens; there's nothing like other fussy parents to make you feel awkward, in my experience. But you're not crossing any line of etiquette or decency by being politely firm about issues like this (and it's a good message to the little one to ask before rummaging). - Appreciative of Consideration and Niceness at Playgrounds

So many people out there have so many issues, just feel good knowing that your kid has a mom who cares, and if someone is mean to you it's a good time to show how you can let it roll off your back, because your kid will run into ''meanies'' his whole life, at the playground, at preschool, at college. I still don't understand how some parents are so oblivious to what their kid is doing and then assuming their kid is always ''right'' I try to remind myself how lucky my kids & I are that I'm not like that. And now I see the fruits of my ''niceness.'' Mainly, communicate with your own kid about what happened. been there seen that

The line I've always used (in my head -- not out loud!) in situations like that one is, ''OK, you have to deal with her --- but at least you don't have to BE her....'' somehow it always helps me pull out one last ounce of patience or humor.

If anything I'd feel sorry for the kid and probably let him KEEP the truck to make up for having such a cranky mommy. And yes, I'd take a bag that closes tightly, or no bag at all. Been there. Pretending I'm bigger than That.

The part about sharing toys...I've just given up taking our things to the park..too hard to keep track of, monitor, referee, etc. Even my very easy going husband has stopped bringing things from home b/c he felt like the bad cop.

We only play with what is there, and if my kids pick up something that belongs to someone else, I loudly say ''that's not ours'' and wait for a cue from the other parent who often say ''he can play with it, Johnny isn't'' I then make sure that if Johnny returns, we give it back and thank him for sharing.

The part about thinking about what you should have said after the fact...I am a SAHM and sometimes the only adult I talk to all day might be another parent at a park, and so, yes, if that interaction was less than ideal, I might ruminate about it more than on a day when I have lots of other adult conversations. Don't be too hard on yourself!

And take YOUR toy back whenever you like, no explanation needed. I feel you