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My dad expects me to provide him with money
Want to be removed as co-signer on step-daughter's loans
Money I loaned to friend has not been repaid
Best friend's questionable moneymaking scheme
More Advice about Finances

My dad expects me to provide him with money

August 2008

I'm having a very difficult time with my father and would like to seek some advice from those with wisdom/experience. My father was a good father to me; he did everything he could to bring my mom and his three children to the US; support us during our early days in the US. On the down side, he was very self righteous; authoritative; and was not open to open communication with his children. I basically entered my first marriage out of the desire to escape the traditional family dynamics. Since then, I went through a divorce; went to law school on my own; remarried and now practice law in the city.

Now my father's retired from a great position. He lives in a condo which I helped buy; drives a SUV Lexus; occasionally travels to the old country or out of town; basically leads a very decent life for a retiree on a fixed budget. However, having the old Asian values of expecting children to support the parents financially in the parents' old age, he has driven me completely crazy. He expects me to provide him with money. Honestly, I have failed to do so simply because I have my family obligations myself: mortgage; my kid's education; other expenses, no luxury by all means: I'm still driving a 6 year old car, and frankly after all bills are paid, I survive on a $50 the last five days prior to the next paycheck!

And my father has turned completely hostile, bitter, & angry at me. He would either confront me directly about money issue: ''Why don't you pay for it, etc?'' Or everyday he would tell my mother that one of his deepest regrets is to bring his family to the US; he should have left us in Vietnam under the communists! That kind of statement hurt and angered me tremendously. First,as a mother myself, I cannot even imagine saying such cruel things about my kids.Secondly, I think if I could afford it, I would help him financially. But I can't. I tried to explain to him but he never listened and he has maintained a very cold, bitter interaction with me. I appreciate any advice you might give. anon

We (my siblings and I) also went through a similar situation with our dad. In our case, what eventually helped was setting a budget for dad's expenses. Our dad knows that he will get a certain amount each month to cover his personal expenses while we siblings will cover other fixed expenses (home, utilities, food, medical). We've explained to him that we also have our own personal bills to pay and that he can't expect us to pay for everything.

And yes, I know of the emotional blackmail (''I raised you - why aren't you being grateful, etc etc'') which sadly, has caused our relationship to deteriorate. I've decided to ignore it now (hard to do yes) and I've told myself that I won't let him get the better of me. I know this isn't very helpful but I hope you find your own way of dealing with his comments. spf

Hi. I am also Asian (Chinese from Hong Kong) and know what you mean about parents and money. I didn't get from your posting whether you are a man or a woman. That matters, in my opinion. I think Asian fathers expect male children to perform but not female children. I have a feeling you are a man, and that is why your father is so hard on you. I think you have to consider also that your values have changed since coming to the U.S. (I know mine have). All the things you mentioned about communication and expectations between you and your father are caught up in the cultural differences. I don't think you can ever change him, so you just have to do your best in YOUR part of the communication. I would definitely explain to him that you don't have the money to support him, and that you are having a hard time. Apologize because you feel really bad, considering all the things he has done for you in the past. Help out in other ways other than financial, and give him the love that he is looking for. Don't get caught up with the money. It's not worth it. Hope this helps. Feel free to email me if you want more communication about this. I have more to say, but it's hard to say it all here. paula

In reading your post, I recognize that there are two issues here: cultural expectations and relationship problems.

You should hightail it into therapy with someone who understands cultural issues surrounding Asian daughters (an Asian woman therapist if possible). She could help you get perspective on what is culturally appropriate - you are straddling two cultures and should have some support in your navigation towards a relationship with your parents which is comfortable for you.

It is possible that your father may not ever be able to accept that his paradigm is not going to work here. If he continues to be abusive, stop talking to him.

I know lots of Asian women who have successfully maintained a relationship with their old country parents within an American attitude (ie: no, you cannot come and live with me, I will not support you as long as you have the means to support yourself, yes I will be helpful to you - but not a servant). It takes strength not to fall into the ''good Chinese daughter'' trap (or Japanese, or Vietnamese), but find a therapist who understands these issues and you will be able to find a balance between the old world and the new. Eurasian and proud

Hi - Your dad's a narcissist, surf the web for definitiions of that. It might be comforting to have the labels. He's open and honest about how little he cares for you. You are still hooked and feeling responsible and guilty. Get therapy to help you distance yourself from him - you owe him no justification for how you spend your money and have the right to have a jewelry fund, a retirement fund, a vacation budget, candy fund - whatever the heck you want. You've been more than a good daughter. I guess I'm assuming you're a woman because we women are more likely to get hooked into guilt for not serving the needs jerks who don't care about us and I can't imagine a man writing that post. Good luck. anon

Easier said than done, but DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Parents know your weak spots, and your dad is obviously struggling with the fact that things aren't working out the way they were ''supposed to.'' And how could they? He moved from his home country, which was in turmoil. He's probably experiencing a bit of mid-life crisis, and discovering that belligerence and anger doesn't work anymore (as maybe it would have if the war hadn't come along). But that doesn't mean he won't stop trying! But it's not about you; it's just dissatisfaction that doesn't have a home. And, unfortunately, for immigrants in this country, things are not like home, and you don't know that till you've left and made a commitment to live here. And once you've lived here, ''home'' isn't really the old country anymore either. Both you and your parents may always feel a little lost from that perspective. (Heck, I even had that sense of disillusionment and disorientation moving from one part of the Bay Are to another after a divorce, so it's much worse changing cultures and countries completely!) Here's what I suggest (again, easier said than done): Do your best with your dad, be firm on your limits, don't join him in his anger (that's just what he's doing to try to get you to do things the ''old way.''), be as loving and compassionate as possible, and mourn the loss of the loving, family-oriented dad you'd love to have (but try to get over it). And walk away when you can't take any more, to take care of yourself. I have similar issues w/ a couple of family members (minus the cultural clash). I will never have the mother I want and imagine, so there are limitations, but she has her strengths as well (and difficulties from her past that I try to empathize with). When necessary, if she lashes out at me--doesn't happen much anymore b/c I am an now expert at avoiding the unnecessary battle--I simply say I have to go, making up an excuse if needed. Also try not to feel guilty about not meeting all of your father's demands. You do what you can, you take care of yourself & family & dad as best as possible, set your limits, and move on. Try not to say things you'll regret when he dies. You wouldn't be anguished if you didn't love him too.

Want to be removed as co-signer on step-daughter's loans

Sept 2007

Hope the BPN community can help w/this one.

We co-signed student loans for my now 26 year old SIL back in 2002 & 2003. Her mother couldn't really help her and we stepped up. She is now married and has an excellent job tho is sometimes late w/a payment (and the loan co calls us every time).

As part of our general financial housecleaning this year (property trusts, paying down debt, etc)as we expect our second child, we have asked her to take us off her loans as co-signers, and thus far she has not, as she's been complaining that the interest on consolidation loans are too high (from 5% to 12% seems to be the range).

Do we have any recourse or are we dependent on her to get this done?

Thanks so much, Responsible

My mother co-signed a student loan for my daughter. We asked about taking her off and it's very simple: we had to make on- time loans for one year and then you can apply to remove the co- signer. The terms of the loan don't change, it's still the dept. of ed. Since you are a co-signer, you have a right to see the loan, I would suggest that YOU find out how to log in to look at the loans you co-signed, find out exactly how to remove yourself as a co-signer and if, in fact, the one year rule still applies, then monitor it and then just DO IT. You can do all of this online and you'll know for sure what the real story is. Gizella

if you cosigned a loan, you are going to be unable to break that contract. it is a legal document and that's pretty much that. however, i consolidated my loans 2 years ago through sallymae and have a rate a little over 3%. the rates are higher now, but i'd advise her to contact them. this is a fixed rate on the majority of my student loans, with about a third being revolving (a HEAL education loan). i have the option of paying this one off first. i'd approach her less from the standpoint that you want to be released of your legal obligation and more that you are trying to help her- catch flies with honey and all that. good luck! paige

Money I loaned to friend has not been repaid

Sept 2007

Back in May, my *good* friend, a colleague of mine, who is a single male, who works full time and makes 4K a month, asked me, a part time worker and married mother of 3, for a small loan. He stated he was in dire need of the money as he was getting evicted from his apartment for ''lack of payment''. He also was having problems with the IRS and the phone company for not paying his bills. I hesitated for a sec (with my instincts telling me no because I figured he will not repay me) but reluctantly decided to go ahead and lend him the money because he cried and seemed so desperate as he begged and begged. I knew he was manipulating me but oh, well, I hated to see him so upset. Well, it's now September and of course he hasn't paid me. I am just figuring I should just ''eat it'' and chalk it up as experience. I'm actually embarrassed for him that he hasn't paid me as I'm the type of person who immediately pays my bills. Unfortunatley, it's awkward now when we see each other at work as the air is tense but I don't bring up the subject waiting to see what he'll do. Anytime he sees me, he always brings it up but doesn't pay up. Don't really know what to do...it's uncomfortable. anon

Mark Twain once noted how sacred the bonds of friendship are -- until money comes up. Your friend has a problem with money and he took advantage of you. Friends don't do that. At the same time, you say that you didn't think he would pay you back, so you apparently told yourself at that time that your friendship was worth losing that amount of money. Did you establish a time at which he should have paid you back? It doesn't sound like it. I would approach him at a moment when you can be alone and ask to talk to him. Tell him that your friendship with him means a lot to you and that's why you need to have him help you out by returning the money he borrowed. Give him a time limit -- a short one, as it was a ''small loan.'' Make it clear that it's really important to you that he make this effort for you. If he doesn't -- make it clear you're no longer friends. And don't lend money unless you really want to. also a soft touch

You are generous to call this person a friend! I wouldn't ever take advantage of a friend in that way. If I wasn't able to pay you back immediately, I would explain in DETAIL why, and give you an idea of when I thought I would have the cash. This may be a losing battle, but I wouldn't just let him get away with this. If it's already awkward talking with him at work, then I would just get my courage up and straight out ask him for the money back and give him a deadline when to pay me. If he brings it up every time he sees you, then follow up his comment with something like this: ''You know, Joe, it's been six months. Xmas (or whatever) is coming soon. I would like to have the money back in the next two weeks. What can I do to help make that possible? Would you like a phone call at home? a note?'' If he says he doesn't have the money now, then tell him that you will accept installments. ''I understand that money is tight. How about you just pay me 20 bucks (50 bucks/100 bucks) every week/every pay day?'' If he says he can't, tell him: ''well Joe, as a matter of good faith and friendship, it is important that you take your debt to me seriously. what CAN you afford to pay me each week?'' Even after all that, he may never pay you back without being forced to. But at least you have stood up for yourself. Did you and he sign anything when you made the loan? Do you have a cancelled check or anything? I would like a friend like you!

I think you've got a few choices. If he's really a good friend, then you tell him, look, I'm uncomfortable with this debt. Let's make a plan for how you'll pay it back. How about $20 a month (or whatever seems reasonable?) If you can't do that, then you can either write it off in your head, and tell him that you've written it off, and therefore it's a gift, and truly think of it that way, or write him off as a friend. It sounds like you're going that way anyway, since you're not really ''awkward'' with a true friend, and a real friend doesn't ''borrow'' money with no apparent intention of paying it back. (Actually I don't have any friends who would ask me for money...) You knew you shouldn't have lent him the money in the first place, you were just hoping you were wrong. You're an optimist, nothing wrong with that. But I wouldn't loan anybody any more money unless you're a money tree.

You're right, he probably won't pay it back. Think I would simply tell him it's ok that he borrowed the money (next time he brings it up) and you know he'll pay it back when he's able, but that you don't wish to talk about it until then. Then change the subject and if he ever brings it up after that just smile and talk about something else. He'll get the message. anon

Yes, I've been there. After not getting paid back, and feeling so uncomfortable, I decided to heed my Grandpa's words, ''Don't loan money, just gift it.'' So I told my coworker not to worry about paying me back. It was still awkward for a long time. After a decade, we are still coworkers, and I will never have the same level of trust in this person, but we are amiable. Much later, I found out that she ''borrowed'' money from many coworkers. One of them did set up a payment plan with her, and she paid the money little by little. hope I never have to go thru that again

I'll bet you are not the only one that your friend has borrowed money from. I had a friend like this too, and I finally figured out two things: everyone he knew was, to him, a potential source for free money and 2) he was never going to pay it back. Nice guy, but really irresponsible. Just be aware. So, I also have siblings who borrow money, and who can also be irresponsible. This has worked for me over the years: I tell them I will lend them money when they need it, but they have to pay me back before I will lend to them again. And then I stick to it. This has worked really, really well. A couple of them need to borrow money pretty often, and they know I'm there for them, but they have to pay me back. They do pay me back, sometimes it takes a year or two. One of my sisters is paying me a little bit every month - she asked me to keep track, so I have a little Excel spreadsheet and when she sends me a check, I add it and send her a copy. It sounds a little unfamilial, but keeping things very business-like has helped. You might try that with your friend. Soft touch, with restrictions

To document the loan, just file a claim in Small Claims court. You might not get your money back, but at least there will be an official record of an amount due to you. And, you will have a documented loss to write off on your taxes.

There's an old saying that if you want to see less of someone, lend them money. It sounds as if there's something else going on that your ''friend'' hasn't told you. Is he a compulsive shopper or gambler? Has a credit-card company increased his interest rate to usurius levels? Does he need credit counseling? Is he trying to impress another woman with expensive jewelry? Lender

Best friend's questionable moneymaking scheme

Dec 2006

Hello BPN! I am conflicted about my friendship with my childhood best friend. We have known each other for over 20 years which accounts for 2/3 of my life! We were true best friends, did everything together from elem thru high school. I moved away for college and have just moved back to town. We'd see each other at least around the holidays and talk every month or so.

Since moving back, there have been some ''transition'' issues, mostly seeing each other more often and realizing how different we are, but mostly non-issues that we both can handle.

More recently, however, she has become involved with a financial company - World Financial Group (WFG), thru her cousin (who I also know from childhood, not the most honest fellow). After asking a few basic questions about the types of life insurance he was hyping up to her (variable universal life), I realized he was blowing smoke. I did a little research and found out the company doesn't have the best reputation, they use multi-level marketing to gain clients (friend abuse i would say) and their associates basically get kickbacks for the referrals (like Amway).

I shared all my research with her and she read it, but still believed her cousin's pitch. I think she just saw dollar signs and that because he was so ''knowledgable'' about financial matters that he would share his ''secrets'' with her and her friends and family. I sat w/ him for a half hour and he backpeddled every time I asked a tough question, no secrets, he was just a fast talking salesman.

Anyhow, I hoped it would pass, I pleaded with her to do more outside resarch, but she has only become more involved. She even has her mother in law in the ''group'' and she is actually going to put real money into one of these lame life insurance plans. She was just wasting her time, but her mother in law can potentially lose lots of money. (my dad has sold life insurance for over 25 years and explained how these work in detail)

I feel very upset by the situation. I have tried to ignore it and have a rule (to myself) to not say anything about it anymore, but she keeps bringing it up because it's such a part of her life now. I have tried to recategorize her in my mind as a sister, since you don't choose family but you do choose friends, and it helps but i'm so annoyed (aside from the ethcial problems i have w/ the situation). I don't have a lot of friends in the area yet so I am also low on options there. What do I do? lonely and concerned

I can completely relate to your situation. My friend of 14 years has been duped into thinking he can make tons of money on the foreign currency exchange market. To humor him, I went to a hotel for the sales pitch. (Gag) My friend was convinced as were 100+ other people they were going to make millions in just a few days trading currencies. They bought the story hook, line, sinker fishing pole and fishing boat and washed it down with cool aid,

I was appalled, people plunked down $5,000 for software. It was hard to stomach; people maxed out credit cards just to pay for the crapy software. Think! 100 people spending $5,000... It's a huge amount of money these people are making.

Now I'm no savvy investor, but when we I returned home I did a Google search for the software/company and found web site after web site with the words complete rip off - stay away - invents if only you want to loose money. Several sites gave details on how the company makes money and you don't. On the "how risky is the foreign exchange market"? It's right around winning at Keno or hitting the big jackpot on a slot machine.

I hate it, but I have lost my friendship with my friend over this. No amount of evidence I produce for him will convince him otherwise. He think's I'm a fool for not investing. As I'm sure you've learned, you have a better chance at making money gambling then with the scheme you friend is offering you. I'm sure you know you will lose ALL your money with your friend's scheme.

Thanks for sharing your story with me, I needed a reality check.

My advice.... Is your friendship more important to you then money, invest. If money is hard to come by, more important to you and your family then lost a friend.

I think you would be happier giving the money to a charity then knowing some SOB is partying with your money.

Avoiding the topic doesn't work with this friend. He believes and I don't. I've tried to educate him and that's about all I can do. (You can lead a horse to water....) It's frustrating.

What's tragic is he is working harder then ever before and not getting ahead financially. As for the mother-in-law - If what you think what these guys are doing is illegal, contact law enforcement. You could try to educate the woman, but now you are butting in on family - You'll be the "bad guy" In a few years they will say, "You know you were right, I should have listed to you." Maybe then your friendship will bloom again.

My friend hasn't made millions. The software these clowns are hawking is now on TV - Christian channels. They use lines like "You have to believe you can become rich". And "You have to believe this system will work for you". Oh my god Anon

It looks to me like your best move is this: the next time she brings it up, look her in the eye and tell her, firmly, gently, & lovingly, that you realize she's committed to this program, but that it is absolutely not right for you, and you'd appreciate it if she'd agree to drop it & not bring it up again. And make a concerted effort to find more friends. --anonymous

I'm sorry your friend has fallen prey to a pyramid scheme. However, the issue here is your friendship with her, not her choice to be taken. There is no point in you spending any more time or energy trying to change her mind as she's made up hers. However, you can gently tell her you've made up yours and you're not interested in joining her venture. If the two of you can continue on as friends, then by all means do so, just be sure not to bring up the issue anymore. If, however, she refuses to drop it, then it may be time to cool the friendship. Also, regardless of the outcome, do look for new friends. That way you won't be dependent on her if you decide to break it off Anon

Be careful. This could end a friendship, and has ended many before.

World Financial Group is most definitely a multi-level marketing (MLM)scheme. They pretend to have a ''support'' network. They must, because they mostly make money on new recruits.

Say no once firmly. If your friend persists, tell her that you need to take a break from her if she will only talk about WFG.

Good luck with this. MLM's don't make friends. MLM make money for those on the top Anon

I would be very clear with your friend that you are NOT interested and want nothing to do with it. If she can't grant that wish, I would start taking my distance.

An acquaintance of mine became involved with this group and tried to get me involved. Some basic research revealed immediately that this was something that I was not interested in. First of all, this person wouldn't tell me much about it.

He just pushed for me to come to a meeting at his home. Then he kept calling me. He even asked another friend to ask me to come. At that point I called him and told him that I was just not interested. I also have a problem with the semi-legal status of these types of businesses and want nothing to do with them.

But about your friend; realize that people change. You did and she did too. (Why do you think so many marriages fail? And these couples LIVED together!) Being apart and having your own lives will change you. Though your lives alligned when you were younger, they obviously don't any longer. You already came up with a solution yourself. Find other friends! Join a sports club of some sort or anything else that will put you in contact with other people. Before you know it this will just be a somewhat bad memory JOJ

I think you have two different problems here. 1) How to keep a life-long friendship with someone who has turned out to have very different values than yours and 2) What to do when people you love do stupid things (and try to get you to do them too).

For problem #1: I really believe in ''make new friends but keep the old''. It's probably selfishness on my part: those old friends are a pretty big slice of my past, and my past is part of who I am, so I want to keep connected to it if I can. For me it's like hanging on to old photos and mementos. You don't look at them every day but it's a great pleasure when you do. So I grew up in Alabama and some of my old friends are way, way more conservative in *every* way than I am. When they come to visit me, honestly they look like they came from another planet. And you wouldn't believe some of the email they send me around election time. But I either ignore it, or joke about it, and they do the same with me and my liberal notions. We all know which topics not to bring up, and where the shut-up-now line is. When we get together, not often but we do, we have fun. There is nothing more relaxing and comforting than spending time with someone you have known for a long time, who knows about all the events in your life that got you to where you are now. The more years I've accumulated, the more important this has gotten. So I just hit the delete key when the Hate Hillary chain-mail comes in, and look forward to the next get-together.

Now #2: a good 2/3 of my immediate family believe very fervently in get-rich-quick schemes. None of them are rich and never will be, but they are all very happy and optimistic, so that is why they keep making the same mistakes over and over in the belief that one day they will actually hit the jackpot. There are few multi-level marketing type schemes that have not been proposed to me by a sister or a cousin or a nephew. My mother regularly invites me to attend this ''free'' seminar or take advantage of that ''free'' hotel offer. I learned a while back that they do not listen to reason. Also, that they never, ever stop believing.

It's part of their DNA. So why beat my head against the wall? I just say ''that sounds like fun but I have so much work to do I just can't make it.'' Or, ''Gosh we just don't have the money'' or ''I just really need to stick with the cosmetics and bath products I use now'' They are all *always* surprised that I do not want to take advantage of all these wonderful opportunities. They just want to help. So they keep coming back with more. I try to view is as just another one of those irritating things that you have to put up with when you are part of a family. G

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