• Friend's hubby giving me *the eye*
• Flakey friends and playdates
• How to find adult friends, post-kids?
• Couples socializing: love him, hate her
• Dinner Parties
• Alcoholic Friends
• Friends and Money
• Where and How to Meet other Parents

Friend's hubby giving me *the eye*

My friend of several years has a husband who, on a few occasions, at least when I've noticed, has given me *the eye*--you know, the one where a guy is clearly checking a woman out. This makes me uncomfortable, not in a creepy-gross-get-away-from-me kind of way, but in a I-don't-want-to-start-anything-with-you / you-shouldn't-be-doing-that-when-I'm-friends-with-your-wife kind of way. I'm not interested in being involved with him. That would be disastrous. He's friendly but not outwardly flirtatious or making any advances toward me or anything, and on my part, I'm friendly and polite but not too talkative with him, and sometimes when we're in a large group I tend to just keep my distance from him. I can't imagine that my friend hasn't noticed her husband doing this but she hasn't said anything about it to me. It would probably be better just to not see them but I'm in a situation in which it's hard to avoid my friend and her husband unless I make really drastic changes to my usual day-to-day routine, and I'm not sure if this situation warrants that.

I'm curious--is this just typical behavior for a man with a wife & kids (I'm also married with kids) and something I can just ignore, or should I continue making efforts to avoid him? Why do guys do this anyway? I'd appreciate hearing a point of view from you married dads out there.

happily married/ain't nothin' but a man

So what to do? (a) Continue your approach and hope he tires and focuses elsewhere--hopefully towards what makes his current relationship possibly unhappy, or (b) Ask him directly (and privately) if he's flirting with you, and tell him that it makes you uncomfortable if he says yes. Of course he may deny it, which is fine, I suppose.

I guess my answer is that if he continues to make you (and maybe his wife, as you mentioned) uncomfortable, it would be worth going with the latter. It's even possible that you will do him a favor by relieving him of his fixation.

giving nobody the eye

Flakey friends and playdates

I need a reality check. Lately many of my friends have become flakes. A couple have told me that getting for our playdates on time (it's at an outside location where there is nothing to do until they arrive) is very stressful for them because they have issues getting there on time and they want to know I won't be mad about it. I understand emergencies and occasionally running late, but if I am meeting someone outside of their home, I really make every effort to be on time in order to give them the same courtesy that I expect in return. I think it is inconsiderate when someone is consistently late. Are there other people out there who feel this too?

Another friend of mine cancels our standing playdates at the last minute. It is annoying - and a little hurtful - as this happens on a regular basis. My two sons end up feeling letdown and I am disappointed too, as the other mother is a good friend. Again, legitimate things come up like sick kids and so on, but I think that most of these situations relate to better plans - or even errands - that have cropped up at the last minute.

Don't get me started on RSVPs that aren't answered.

I am often the organizer of events, the person who calls/emails to confirm plans, the kind of person who can be counted on. I am frustrated by all this flakiness and lack of responsibility. We all have two or more children and are SAHMs.
Sometimes friendships can be trying

While you find your friends flaky and unreliable, they find you rigid and uptight. While your perfectionist tendencies make you a superb event coordinator, your standards are difficult to impossible for the average person to live up to. So, your friends can't help but feel judged, unloved, and rejected because they are not good enough. You must be pretty great for them to put up with feeling that way all the time, but the prognosis is not good for the long term.

You need to decide where your priorities and limits are. If timeliness is that important to you, it might be best to find a group of friends that is as organized as you. If you love your friends dearly, you need to learn how to relax and not expect everyone to live their lives by your rulebook, regardless how 'in the right' you feel you are. That said, there must be limits SOME where, and you'll have to figure out where yours are. While it's a bit manipulative, you can always tell your friends to meet you earlier than you really expect them. We did this at holidays with a relative - always told them to come an hour prior to when we really wanted them there and it worked like a charm. Some people just don't have the skills to plan and manage their time well; some people are in a constant state of chaos/overwhelm. Imagine the thing you are worst at in life, and then imagine that you are expected to be good at this thing in order for your friends to accept you and not be angry with you. Losing proposition, right?

Part of friendship is compromise and meeting halfway. Another part is accepting people as they are and not trying to change them. If your friends back out a lot, then maybe you need to learn how to make tentative dates, so when they flake, you were only somewhat expecting them anyway. I know this will be hard for a personality type like yours. You like precise details and knowing what to expect. But perhaps, in learning how they operate and stretching who you are, you'll find less stress and more joy in your friendships. I truly hope this for you.

For your friends that say being on time stresses them out, here's my advice: Tell them where you will be at what time and then leave when you're done, even if they have just arrived. Give 'em a hug and a smile on the way out. If they want more of your busy day, they'll show up on time in the future. -- Tsan

In my opinion, people take this playdate thing a little too seriously. It's challenging and often maddening to get out the door and somewhere on time, with kids in tow (last-minute diaper changes, someone's hungry NOW, etc.). Stuff comes up. People have lives. Sometimes there's a time crunch. For me, it's not worth it the stress. It's no wonder that my second-born kid has never had a formal playdate (but still gets lots of social interaction elsewhere).

That's great that you are diligent about sticking to your commitments and being prompt, but not everyone holds themselves to those standards, at least when it comes to playdates. You'd be better off finding playdate families who take the playdate arrangement as seriously as you do.

As an aside, I think the whole kid birthday party thing is out of control too. We've declined a few invitations just because it gets to be too much of a demand on our family time. But we ALWAYS RSVP when we don't (or do) attend... No playdates please

Finally, canceling at the last minute (for no good reason) when small children are involved is also inexcusable. My kids can certainly understand when their best friend is sick and can't make it, but I've been waiting at a park for an hour before, explaining to my son that his best friend will "be here soon, I'm sure". When he finally did show up, it turned out that they had found something interesting to watch on their way instead of meeting us at the park. Thanks a lot. I also know the feeling of craving some adult conversation - when friends cancel, we lose out on that, too.

Suggesting setting the meeting time earlier is well intentioned but misses the point. I'm not always on time and I'm struggling with this SAHM thing. But I always call to say that the poop-machine has hit and we've had 5 tantrums already this morning. Then, I actually get SUPPORT from my friends when we finally DO make it! Good luck. mother of 2

I can understand being late (esp. when traveling with kids--we all know how hard it can be to get out of the house). But in my opinion (and in my circle of friends, some of whom are from the midwest like me and my wife, and some of whom are native Californians), there is NO excuse to cancel a get-together, or just not show up, for no reason. Sickness, an unscheduled nap, etc., are good reasons to cancel something, but the polite thing to do is call. Deciding that it's just too much effort, or that you really need to run to the grocery store instead, doesn't fly.

Just my 2 cents... Respectful of others' time and hoping for the same...

''Welcome to Berkeley! You're obviously not from here, or you'd be accustomed to the way things are done around here. wink The flaking on plans/lateness thing used to drive me nuts when I first moved here. Where I'm from people honor their committments to each other.''

As someone who was born and raised in Berkeley and has lived in several other places in the US, I think you should look at everyone elses' responses and note than no one else brought up the fact that tardiness, courteousness, and general good manners were lacking in this area because that's just how it is here. I am continuously surprised at peaples' lack of consideration when it comes to scheduling or making plans. Why just yesterday, someone showed up to my house an hour late for an appointment (isn't that what an appointment means?), and seemed genuinely shocked when I was annoyed. She presumed that telling me she'd be at my house at noon meant she could arrive any time during lunch time! And she's not only not from here, she's from another country. So I wouldn't go attributing bad manners to someone's address. This is something that is partly inherent, partly instilled. To the original poster, it's difficult to manage other people's shortcomings, so maybe just focus on what you can change--your level of frustration and attitude towards it. Good luck. Ms. Manners, too.

Flakiness is not in the water but perhaps the town attracts people who are looking for an excuse to be flaky.) As you acknowledge, there are factors that delay us (or force us to cancel at the last second)so I always try to discuss the possible pitfalls beforehand and check in shortly before departure to make sure things are running on time. Set up a phone call before leaving the house (or via cell) as part of the play date. I also do not tell my kids that we are meeting someone unless I am positive the person will show. I also tell them that after a certain time the date is basically cancelled, ''We will leave the park at X.'' For example we have friends who are INSANELY late so we tell them to call before they leave and if it is too late we simply tell them to forget it. My experience is that if people realize you will not wait around for them forever they work harder to show up. And finally, if people continue to be flaky, I just stop making plans. This, incidentally, has happened to me too! I learned my lesson. Hope this helps.
Try to be on time even with wee ones

How to find adult friends, post-kids?

Four years ago, before we had children, my husband and I had a small social life. We had friends, and although we would have liked to have more even then, it was fine, especially since we could go out together.

Now we have two children, and next to no social life at all. We can't go to events we used to attend (an 8:30 dinner is not possible, unless we get a babysitter, which we can only do occasionally.) Our friends without children don't want to socialize on our schedule (meaning we generally need to be home after 8:30 PM.) We don't have many friends who have had children. (I do have one good, loyal friend with a child, and some relatives in the area, so we are not always alone, but still.)

So I thought, especially after a recent move to a neighborhood with many families, I'll try to befriend some new people. I've invited over various families in our extended block area, and assorted others, like people from my husband's work, people who we were friendly with who had kids, etc., basically anyone I could think of. This project hasn't been much of a success. I have issued many invitations, both to parties and dinners, and even informal, ''drop by any time.'' I would estimate about 1 in 4 of my invitations is accepted, and I get maybe 1 for every 5 I give. I also tried a toddler music class, which my children loved, but didn't create any friendships.

An incident this weekend brought this to a head, when I was in a friendly conversation with two other neighbors. One asked the other one to dinner. Nothing was said to me. Obviously, I am going about this in the wrong way, but I'm not sure what I should do differently. Should I continue my invitations, or is it time to give up? Is there something else I should try? I wonder if there is something wrong with me, but obviously, this forum can't tell me that. The only other thing I can think of is to join some religious community. The problem is that I don't have a religious or spiritual bone in my body, and so I would feel like an imposter. I'd love to have some advice about this. Looking for friendly advice

Secondly, it sounds like you are really working hard at expanding your social life, so everything I suggest may be a repeat. But I think every parent goes through this, and it is a tough transition.

I've met parents through story hour at the library, talking at the toy store, parenting classes, gymnastics, etc. Almost anything that centers on children should be a good opportunity. But you could also try going it alone--either you or your husband enjoying activities solo and meeting people that way, in most communites you can pick which ones would have compatible people involved.

And, you could try not trying so hard. Maybe your neighborhood moves slowly in integrating newcomers. And you could use the parenting forum on Craig's List-you could be online afterhours and still making contacts (I haven't tried this, but I use Craig's List for everything else). I hope this helps, and good luck.

Also, despite being a not religious person myself, I tried the Unitarian Church in Oakland a few times, and really enjoyed it. My son went to a separate playgroup and really enjoyed it, and I was able to sit in a beautiful building for an hour and listen to music. It is worth a shot. Kean

But then I remember that being a parent takes a lot of time and energy, and that I am also not always able to return calls, even when I really mean to. I remember that while I used to be able to pull off a dinner party on little or no notice, with a child around I'm lucky if I can get the groceries out of the fridge without him pouring milk on the floor. If this is true for me, it must be true for other parents, too.

So even when I feel afraid that I'll just get rejected again, I try again. If a one session class was not enough, I try a second, or one at another time when there will be different families there, or a different kind of class of play group. Sometimes it takes a while to find a friend. I try going to the same park at the same time each week and talk to ''the regulars,'' I suggest a picnic, or going for coffee afterrwards. Sometimes it doesn't work, but my mother once told me that there is a virture just in reaching out to others. Sooner or later, a friend will reach back.

Your story about your two neighbors sounded like it hurt a lot. I remember that it took a few years to develop frienships in my neighborhood, and that I often saw other neighbors who had been there longer socializing together. When I was already feeling lonely, that really hurt. But over time, I have developed different kinds of friendships with many neighbors. The time spent with them rises and falls, but I feel like our family is a part of the commmunity in a way I did not in when we were the new kids on the block.

On really bad days, you might talk to your husband, and suggest that the two of you find a babysitter and go out toegether. Splurge. Some focused attention like that goes a long way. You might also talk with your loyal freind who has a child, and tell her what you are feeling. Maybe she feels the same way at times. Perhaps the two of you could think of a way to start a mom's group or play group. Don't give up. Be kind to yourself. Carolyn

Just to philosophize a little about friendship: my kids are teens now and I have social circles based more on my own adult interests than on the kids'. Many of my closest friends I met when I went back to school after my kids started elementary school. Some of them have kids and some don't. I can see that friendships take time - maybe 4 or 5 years for an acquaintance to become a friend, and then a few more years for a close friend. And they take some work, the same as a marriage. You have to make an effort to call, get together, etc. I still keep in touch with the old playgroup moms and we occasionally run into each other. I get together regularly with the mom of my son's best friend from the co-op preschool. Also - don't give up on your pre-kids friendships. Some of them will have kids eventually and they will really need you! And the ones who don't are important too - I've stayed in touch with highschool friends from the east coast, and those friendships have become very valuable over the years. Anon

Now for the good news: when the kids are a bit older, they will start school, and their school will (hopefully) not only be a good fit for them academically and socially, but a good match for you socially as well. We are very involved in our kids school (Tehiyah), which we love, and we have found a wonderful sense of community there which I deeply value. There are days, still, when I come up for air and realize how much I miss my girlfriends of old, who are really no longer a daily part of my life, but other friendships arrive, and the older ones just require long intervals between visits. There are parts of parenthood that are indeed a lonely journey, but all things change, and if you have kids that make friends, or extend their social lives into other avenues (like soccer, dance, music, choir), there are lots of parents out there craving connection.

I would simply add: Continue all the wonderful things you've been doing to be available, indulge in the occaisonal babysitter, pursue your own interests (like an adult school cooking class if you love to cook, volunteering once a week for a favorite political cause, family camping with the Sierra Club, etc etc) and continue to explore all possible places where folks of similar values and life circumstances might hang out. Your efforts will be rewarded.

Best of luck during these sometimes lonely years.

A mom who remembers this all too well, Deborah

That being said, some churches can be more friendly than others, and church people, too, can sometimes get a little wrapped up in themselves (translation: clique-ish). You should check out several different places. If you decide you like one, then I'd encourage you to try to have some kind of consistent participation. That's the best way to build community.

God bless, Jim W.

Please feel free to email me. I hope this helps! Maria

Someone else wrote about it being difficult to start a social life in the East Bay. Something that I've noticed which might be telling as to how ''friendly'' Berkeley (where I live) is, is the obsession with privacy fences and vegetative ''screens''. If you're from here, this might not seem weird; but I grew up in Washington, D.C., and EVEYRONE had a 5 foot chain link fence, which meant that you could see what was going on in everyone's backyard whichever direction you looked in. We knew ALL the neighbors on our very large block (we're talking big city life here) plus neighbors on the surrounding blocks. There were not really close friendships among the adult neighbors, but people definitly took time to speak at length on the street with one another and there were a lot of close friendships among the children. New neighbors were welcomed right away into the neighborhood. I don't understand this need to be isolated from your neighbors; our next door neighbors are fanatical that way. It's definitely a sad thing to me.

It seems that our entire culture becomes more and more isolating, with all of our creature comforts allowing us to be fully independent from each other and entertainment being available at the push of a button; you don't even have to move! anon

I felt the exact same way you did for a long time. I was the first in my group to have a kid and to make things worse a lot of my friends moved out of state due to the economy. Just seeing two moms hanging out with their kids made me feel extremely jealous.

I was in a mom's group, and I was making friends with a few other moms, had plans occasionally with other families, but it was never enough. I joined groups, I extended invitations (and even recieved a few), but my life never really reflected the image I had in my head (close, nurishing friendships with other mothers,and social plans for the whole family on weekends). I hadn't felt jealousy/longing like that since I was in high school!

Finally, after talking extensively with my therapist, I figured out that what I was really craving was my mother and sister. I know it sounds weird, but thats how those types of issues manifest themselves. I had severe post-partum depression and anxiety when my daughter was born and my mother was not there for me even though she lives 1/2 hour away. I barely see her now and my daughter is two. My sister doesn't answer her phone (and refuses to have an answering machine). Once I realized this was my problem and got up the courage to confront my mother and sister about how I felt, the desperate feelings pretty much went away.

It was then that I realized that I did have mom friends, I did have a social life and all of a sudden we got more invitations from other families.

Not saying its what's up with you, but I think its worth thinking about. anon

I think part of the problem is that parents get overwhelmed with the time demands of parenting and simply don't feel they have any time to develop new friendships. So as much as some of the people you have crossed paths with might enjoy your company a lot, they are not allowing themselves to make time for that additional enjoyment because they are simply overwhelmed with the other things that seem to take their time (kids, work, paying bills, sleep!!).

I am sure it is true because I feel like I don't have time to spend with existing close friends, let alone develop new friendships. A really nice woman with a child my daughter's age recently asked me to do something social and I said no because I felt it would cut into my very limited time with my daughter. I tell you this because I want you to know you are not alone in this situation.

Another problem of course is that people are ''clique-y'' and it doesn't occur to them that their lives might be richer by associating with a range of different people.

In any event, hang in there and know that you do have a valuable friendship to offer and over the years I am sure you will gradually find that you have more and more friends whom you really enjoy and who are quality people in your life, regardless if you ever have a huge quantity!! Take care.

I'm a native to Berkeley/El Cerrito and now own the house I grew up in. Most of my neighbors have lived here fifty years and knew me as a child. In most cases, I have never been inside their houses. We do have high fences around our yards. BUT (and this is the important part) all of us are quite pleasant with each other. We never have turf disputes, nor problems with ''different'' lifestyles. This seems quite a comfortable way for us to live in close proximity, I think.

Social life? Ours is quite rich. One family goes to Tehiyah. (Group gatherings at the house are common.)Another family has friends over to their garage to create Ikebana arrangements every Saturday. Rock musicians down the road practice in their basement. My sister is active at Epworth (on Hopkins) and my family travels to dog shows frequently. Our local library provides listings of fun things to do.

For those who need to find a kindred soul in parenting, try Tekla Nee's column:

''Tekla Nee is a Palo Alto mother of three and author of ''The Everything Baby9s First Year Book'' and ''The Mommy Zone: Tales from the Trenches of Parenthood.'' Her column appears every Thursday in the Daily News. You can reach her with your comments and suggestions in care of the Palo Alto Daily News, 329 Alma St., Palo Alto, 94301, or by email at tekla (at) well.com. ''

She's funny, real...and very ''Bay Area.''

Dorothy Coakley, ''proud to be a public librarian''

My childless friends do not want to hear about potty training or weaning or toddler tantrums, but that's fine with me because it gives me an opportunity to talk about non-mom stuff -- politics, movies, mutual friends, work (I work part time). I live and breath mom/toddler issues and frankly I like to have a break from them once in a while! It does mean my childless friends have to meet me earlier because I have to leave earlier, and I'm probably not up for a boozy night because I have to get up at 7 a.m. but that's never been an issue.

Personally I've never found a moms group I've been comfortable with and although I love chatting to other moms in the playground, I don't find that shared motherhood means automatic sisterhood.

Just a different viewpoint ... ANONYMOUS anon

Couples socializing: love him, hate her

I'd like some impartial advice... My husband and I are friends with another couple we met through our church. We both think *he* is great. I think this friendship is very good for my shy husband. The problem is, *she* drives me nuts (and my husband doesn't think she's the greatest either, but he doesn't get stuck spending as much time with her as I do). I won't go into the reasons she bugs me; I'll just say that I feel pretty justifiably annoyed by her continuing thoughtless behavior (and she's so dense that I don't think she gets it, even though I've been trying to subtly push her away). How do you handle a situation like this? We're already taking the approach of encouraging my husband and the other husband to do a lot of guy stuff together (instead of all 4 of us getting together). But I still have a lot of contact with her--way more than I would like. I'm afraid that if I preemptively try to talk to her about the way I feel (when I can try to be diplomatic and sensitive) that I'll just screw everything up and end our husbands' friendship. On the other hand, I'm afraid that if things continue, I'm just going to lose it someday and rip her head off. Any advice on what I should do, and what, if anything, I should say?

First of all, whatever you do, do not say anything to this other woman about your not getting along with her. It will not solve any problems. Rather it will create new problems. If you can, also try to soft pedal on complaints about her to your husband. It puts him between a rock and a hard place - he wants to please you, but he wants to socialize too, so what can he do? I have two suggestions that work for me: 1) do things together in bigger groups than the 4 of you. 2) do things in smaller groups than the 4 of you. The dynamics of four are very bad for you - you always get stuck with the woman while your husband is developing a friendship with the guy.

Number one, bigger groups: see if you can find another few people to include when you have them over, or go out, or whatever. Be careful to not exclude or gang up on the woman (she may be annoying to others too, not just you). With more than 4 in the group, the assignment of interacting with her does not fall solely on your head, and you may even find that you don't mind being around her when it's in a bigger group. Number two, smaller groups: Your husband can take the kid(s) over for a visit without taking you - you might have some deadline at work, or a pre-existing plan to get together with your sister, or the urgent need to do several loads of laundry. Sometimes the wife of my husband's best friend doesn't come over because "it is that time of the month and she is having a really bad day and would just like to lie down for a couple of hours." (The men fall for this even if the women don't.) This is perfectly fine with me, because I'd rather she didn't come over too. I try to reciprocate by having urgent business that coincides with get-togethers at their house. Over time, this has blossomed into a pattern of her husband bringing their daughter over and just hanging out, and my husband visiting them without me. We do all see each other at larger unavoidable get-togethers such as kids' birthday parties. At these times we are perfectly nice to each other and no one would ever guess we can't stand each other.

So, yes it is possible to have a relationship with this couple. You just need to be a little creative. G.

If the suggestion comes up to make it a 4-some instead of a 2-some, have a ready alibi so you can gracefully decline, or just tell them you think your husband needs a little male-bonding time and you have too much to do. If the wife continues to pester you to do things with her, you will need to let her know you already have too many other commitments to deal with. Your husband can help you as well, if the subject comes up while he's out with the other guy. Sometimes it's easier if she hears it through her own husband that you're busy.

I think you can do this without hurting her feelings if she is as dense as you say. I work with people like that and it's practically impossible to hurt their feelings. They just don't "get it". M.