How much money is enough?

I am in a job that is very stressful and exhausting. It's a Silicon Valley tech job and I feel utterly burnt out after six years at this non-stop, always-on job and parenting two kids at the same time. The problem? It pays $300K a year. I am the main breadwinner in our house with my partner's job paying 1/3rd that amount. My question is, how much money is enough in the Bay Area? We have been, for the six years I've been at this job, saving massive amounts for retirement and kids' college, while also paying for private school in SF. We have stockpiled everything we could, knowing this job would kill me at some point and I'd have to leave it. I am at that point; I am so burnt out that I don't know if I have it in me to keep working in Silicon Valley at all. But I am terrified to quit this job, because we are afraid for our future as we have only been saving for retirement in earnest for the past six years and don't even own property. One way out of our predicament would be to leave the Bay Area, and we are very strongly considering that. But, before we move, we are wondering if it is possible to live in a top school district or pay for private school making much, much less. Can it be done? Is there such a place? (We've looked at Piedmont, Palo Alto, and other districts near to my job, but they all seem very unaffordable.) time-starved

In your case, if you are earning a lot of money in a stressful job you hate, is there any reason it wouldn't be possible for you to earn something close to that (say 70%) in a job with better working conditions? I am just thinking it should not have to be an "all or nothing choice" - either big bucks or no salary at all. If you have skills that someone is willing to pay a lot for, they must be translatable to SOME other job. I would at least try. Good luck.

There is a calculator there that will show you where you rank in wealth among the world's people. In your case, you are in the top .001% in terms of wealth. So do you make enough money? It's good that you asked that question. I hope you can find a truly satisfying answer. one of the world's wealthy

As a lifelong member of the working class I have a different perspective. My spouse makes 60K a year working 2 jobs and in the best of times I make 25K working 2 jobs (most yrs closer to 15K.) We live w/o the goodies you mentioned (the sum total of our savings is $4000 and that's the most we've ever had), my kids will have to make their way thru college the way I did, scholarships, loans and scrambling, etc, etc. Quite frankly it can really suck to have to stress about money as much as we do.

But having said that our family is not nearly as stressed as you describe. Maybe its a difference in expectations or willingness to feel satisfied. When money worries get overwhelming I don't check my bank account (that will only enflame them!); I open my fridge door and see that it's full. If hunger isn't an issue then I remember all's good and I've got more than most people on the planet. I love the Bay Area, the network of friends we have, etc, etc. We have a lovely life, not because we have ''enough money,'' but because we're able to let what we have be enough. anon

By my math, you and your partner make $400,000 together. That's a lot by most people's standards, and the vast majority of us get by on much less (and many people will post to tell you so).

The question of how much money is enough, however, depends on a number of things.

1) How much money you actually spend. It sounds like you have been saving a lot. But it isn't clear whether you've been saving $50K/spending $350 K or saving $300 K/ spending $100 K. That is going to make a big difference in how easy or hard this will be.

2) How much your current spending can be reduced. You could send your kids to public school, but would you? You say you don't own a house and that is good in terms of having the flexibility to cut costs-- the current housing market is making it extremely hard for many people to sell their homes.

3) What kind of lifestyle you want to have. This is related to #2. Public school, small house, no yard, not-so-great neighborhood, limited dining out, used car (or no car)--you can cut your spending a lot. But what are you willing to do? I live in Oakland and send my child to public school, and we are very happy.

You don't give enough information in your post for anyone on BPN to answer your question. How many kids? How much savings? What are your can't-cut-this financial obligations? How old are you? How old are your kids? What is your current budget? My point is, there is a lot of information to answer your question and we (BPN readers) don't have it.

I recommend that you hire a FEE-ONLY financial planner (the national association of personal financial advisors has a useful listing of members http://www.napfa.org/; also Brian Pon at Financial Connections Group http://www.financialconnections.com/financial-advisory- team.html is very a very sensible planner). A financial planner can help you figure out a current and possible future budgets, assess your current savings (retirement/college/other), help you decide whether you can/should buy a house, and help you figure out a plan.

In the meantime, find out if it is feasible to cut your work schedule. Maybe you could stay at your current job and work 3 days a week for $180K--if you can work out a budget that makes that work. Carrie

Montera middle school is survivable. High School is problematic but Tech isn't so bad. Housing is less than Piedmont. Then there is Berkeley with great public schools and Albany as well. Berkeley High is awesome!! Lots of choices well within your means. I suggest leaving the job based on your post. Don't let it kill you. Had a friend in a similar spot and he finally just quit and was unemployed for 6 months and then a much less stress job popped up and all is well. Best Wishes anon

We both have Ph. D.s and work in academia or non-profits, were salaries are generally low. We were able to own a house in lower Rockridge and could have probably sent our kids to Peralta (we have since moved). To own a house, we have always bought properties with in-law apartments that we have used to pay our mortgage and make ends meet. We do contribute for retirement and we don't have any debts other than our home mortgage. We just opened a savings account for our children but do not have a college account, we both come from middle families were we had to stay close to home to go to college, go to good public schools (e.g., Cal) and get grants and/or work part time--and we expect our children to do the same or they might be able to get scholarships for Ivy League universities...

And, having said that, we also have friends who make it with much less than we make and have a happy live in the Bay Area: they just rent, live in small apartments, send the kids to public school and get involved in it, etc. Making ends meet

I suggest you read Dave Ramsey's book ''The Total Money Makeover'' for some advice on how to manage your money. That will help you greatly when you go from making 400k a year to 100k.

The reality is, and you probably know this, you are going to have to make sacrifices. You are going to have to choose between a nice house, a good/private school, onice cars, neighborhood, and lifestyle.

My husband and I saved $100,000 over 4 years making between $73k and 150k. Granted, this was before we had a kid. She is still not school age so we don't have that to consider, however, with our 100k we purchased a very modest 2 bedroom, 1 bath home in Maxwell Park in Oakland. Our mortgage is $2200/month. To us, this is a FORTUNE because we rented for years at $1500/month. We don't go out to eat except the occasional lunch or dinner once a month or so. We buy premade food from Trader Joes and I take my lunch with me to work. We drive older cars that we have paid off and don't plan to buy any more until we can pay cash for them. If you do these things, you could easily still afford a private school on 100k. And you don't need to live in an expensive neighborhood if you pay for private school.

I'm guessing with a job that pays $300k many of your coworkers, peers, and friends have a lifestyle that you feel you need to have too. But your kids will be FINE if they attend a public school. You will be FINE if you don't buy property. You will be FINE if you don't eat at nice restaurants frequently or drive expensive cars. If you are going to be home with the kids anyway, you can help give them a good education to supplement what they learn at a public school which will help them excel just as well as if they were in a private school.

If you prefer public school, you can easily rent in a nice neighborhood and avoid the property issue. I have a friend that rents a 3 bedroom, 2 bath duplex in Cupertino for around $2300/month. It's a great school system and a reasonable rental rate.

My husband and I pay our mortgage and live fine on 100k/year. I work and he stays home with my daughter. And we still manage to save $500+ a month, give 10% of our income to our church, pay all the bills, and get plenty of extras here and there (nice clothes, going out once in a while). We could afford to do more, but we don't. Neither of us is burned out. It is doable. We plan to send her to a public school and supplement her education on our own. We plan for her to get loans or scholarships for college. good luck!

I recently read a book that is somewhat helpful...''If I am so smart, where did all my money go?'' For us, saving is not a problem (this book assumes you spend more than you make, which is not our challenge, luckily), but nonetheless, it was helpful to look at categories of expenses and average %'s and such...also for calculating future expenses (for us and for you...what will be the total cost of private school? what is the projected cost of college, really?) Maybe this will help you think it through?

Moving to another part of the bay area with better schools might or might not be a better option for you. For us it is not since we are lucky to have a low mortgage balance and property taxes...moving would dramatically raise both of those....higher than the cost of private school for us anyway.

A friend in the financial industry tells me that we can retire when we can live off 3% of our liquid resources...which means $30k per year for each $1M you have in the bank...which is a LONG way off (if ever) for us. Would need nearly $2M just to cover private school. Insane.

So back to the question at hand...how much is enough? I think that doing the calculations in the book mentioned above would really help you get closer to that answer as it is individual to your expenses and future plans. Different answer of course between how much is enough salary to live on vs. how much savings are enough to retire. Anon

Now listen, I am sure that you will find MANY who will rhapsodize about $ not buying happiness, etc. But the reality of life is that you need some, esp. if you want to own a house, pay for your retirement and your children's college. You have quite an opportunity here.

Now, I'm not saying that you are NOT burnt out, but do you need a leave of absence (for a month or two) or do you need a whole new career? it's amazing what a break can do to recharge you.

To answer your questions: if the 2 of you make $400K together, you CAN afford Piedmont. As for private schools: here in East Bay, you can find schools where you child can speak spanish, french, german, chinese, and even sign. Where else can you find this?!?

Hey, if you want to move, do so (more room for the rest of us!), but you need to think this out. best of luck

But what I feel you are really asking is, how to keep the same amount of money and all it's perks but stay at home.

You want to be taken care of. You don't want to be the breadwinner.

Sorry, that's not a nice response but it's really at the heart of what you are asking. You really want your spouse to make your salary, let him deal with the stress and then you can stay home but still keep the lifestyle.

You have options, get another job, get a richer spouse, more to a less affluent area, win the lottery, learn to be happy with less, keep the job and learn to deal with the stress, etc.

Figure out what you really want. There are many answers, you just have to choose. You Choose

We feel very lucky to have an annual income of a little more than $75K, and know lots of families who live on less than that -- and we feel like we live well. We have two healthy and happy kids who absolutely LOVE their education in the Berkeley public schools, a home that we love in a neighborhood with trees and gardens and other nice folks, and jobs that we care about and enjoy. We help out family in other parts, have two used cars that we don't have to use too often (we can generally walk to work), and enjoy vacations when we need them. We also have health care and always enough to eat. And we wouldn't want a fancier house or a private school education even if we could afford it.

So yes, it's entirely possible to do it on less. Just decide what's really important to you, pay for that, and let the rest go. As far as I've seen, the race to the top doesn't really make most people happy -- and once you have enough money for the real essentials, whatever you need for the rest of your happiness generally can't be bought.

It helps if you surround yourself with friends who feel the same way, because community is a great factor in balancing out those rough spots that sometimes come from living on less. set priorities and enjoy!

First of all, if one makes 400k, one is paying 50% of that in taxes. So, really, the starting pointing would be 200k in terms of available income. If the original poster were I, she would be shoveling out 3 tuitions (one college, one high school, and one middle school) to the tune of over 100k. So, let's say that leaves 90k for what? A mortgage/rental (which is going to be more expensive in the better school districts), health insurance (our Blue X PPO is running us 18,000k/yearly), my spouse's student loans (albeit at low interest but no longer deductible--a whole 'nother thread), food, clothing, shelter, car payments, and supporting a mother-in-law who was unimaginably prodigal with her windfall, but what are we going to do, let her live on the street??

So, before the poster asks (your expenses matter and inform what 400k really means) and before everybody gets into their ''rage'' mode, understand that you don't know the first thing about the expenses that beset this poster.

Really, she/he was asking for help in assessing something about which she/he was concerned or anxious.

Misericordia, BPNers, e.g. compassion. Anon

Money Envy

I never thought I'd feel this way, but here I am. My husband's business is ending, and we're in thousands of dollars of debt. I have a decent job but it just scrapes our family by. We have a small son who wears hand me downs, and lives in a house of love but little else. Our furniture is wobbly, we've got a roof that leaks, and absolutely no money for vacations, new clothes, movies, dinners out, or extras.

I'm tired of having to make excuses when I can't go to movies or out to dinner with friends. I was never a big shopper, but it'd be nice to buy new jeans. And the hardest part for me, as a mom, is hearing about other kids' vacations, piano lessons, classes, etc. when I can barely buy gas to get to work.

I know money doesn't buy love, yet it feels like our financial boat is sinking. I guess I'm looking for some suggestions to deal with my own envy of parents whose disposable income might comprise my entire month's salary. I'm jealous, and I'm not happy about that. How do you deal? Melancholy, but not mad.

For me, when I worry about the $11,751 in debt I am, I try to remember that 1 1/2 years ago I was $60,000 in debt. When I feel unkempt in my ill-fitting jeans, and it sinks in that I don't have the money to go out and buy new ones, I try to distract myself with how adorable my child looks in her self-constructed ensembles. They are quite daring and splashy (hand-me-downs). My husband tells me every day how beautiful I am. This helps. Though I have not had a haircut since last Mother's Day, and we live in a rental house that I hate, I have my kids. I remember having money in the bank and a clean condo with a great view in San Francisco once. My shabby life with kids now is incredibly better. Changing my Perspective

We often shop second hand for our daughter. We do not eat out or go to the movies except when we get a gift certificate as a gift. I wear clothes that are several years old and we drive cars from the 80s and early 90s.

Here's also what we do. We get annual passes for the zoo and Lawrence Hall of Science. We also get scholarships for summer camps (apply early and often). We visit the public library often. We go to events at the Oakland Museum when it's free (once per month) and the San Francisco Museums (once per month free or very low cost) and we ride the bus and BART. I want to let you know that you can have really great, smart kids. You can have happy kids and you can be okay with less. And, it's really easy to compare yourself and come up short if you look at material wealth.

Recently, I overheard a parent who is a high level professional who said she would love to go back to being a cashier. She loved the job and was happy when talking to the customers that came in - she cashiered in high school and college. But she now had too many obligations.

There is envy on both sides of the fence. AND, I really understand how you feel. Occasional Envy mixed with mostly Graditude

Some of what I've done to combat this is to work with my husband to make plans and set goals to improve our financial situation. This helps, because, though change doesn't happen overnight, and we've had setbacks, at least i feel like we're *doing something.*

But, we're not at a place where we are even able to pay our bills on time yet, let alone have any disposable income to speak of, so there are times where I still feel sad and wish we had more money.

When I start to feel really blue, I work to re-direct my attitude and practice gratitude for what I DO have, which, as Anna Quindlen puts it, is ''an embarrassment of riches'' compared to what the vast majority of people in this world have. Really. We have a roof over our heads, my daughter is surrounded by love, has clothes and shoes and plenty of toys. I have clothes a running car and food to eat. I live in a beautiful part of the world where there are many wonderful things to do for FREE (some of my favorite things to do cost nothing!).

Also, my daughter gets to live with her grandma and grandpa right upstairs. I get lots of support from them when I need it, and my daughter knows she has a lot of people who love her.

Most importantly of all: I do not have to watch my child die of starvation, or disease, or grow up in a war-zone-- living with the fear that she might not get to grow up at all, and, even she does, she will likely be damaged and terrorized.

Reminding oneself of that last part can really help to put things in perspective, I find that's true for me, anyway. Anon.

I sometimes start to get depressed when I see others spending without a second thought when I have to count every dollar. But a few thoughts keep me from going down that bitter road very far. First, I don't resent rich people I know. they are usually very hard working and have made some sacrifices for their lifestyle. And because of them financial aid is available to us poorer folks.

Second, I've lived poor in third world countries. I realize our family has wealth beyond measure compared to most people in the world! I don't have to walk miles to fetch water and firewood. I don't have to sell my children as domestic servants. I don't have to prostitute to stay alive. I have a house with heat, water, furniture, appliances and 2 cars. We have extras like computers, cameras, and cell phones. I know that money anxiety is terrible, but one's absolute amount of money doesn't have much to do with one's happiness. Your RELATIVE wealth determines how satisfied you are. If everyone around you has about your same level of wealth or poverty you are a lot happier, regardless of how much that amount is. It's comparing unfavorably to others in your community that brings resentment. If you expand your concept of what is your community to the whole world, you will realize just how amazingly priviledged you are.

Third, I know dissatisfied rich people and happy poor poeple.

Fourth, I take comfort in that my enforced decreased consumption is leaving a smaller footprint on this world - America consumes about 25% of the world's resources with our lifestyle. And finally, bitterness is not good for the heart. I hope your finances improve, along with your outlook. Relatively poor, relatively rich

I don't have any real advice, except that I listen to myself when I'm in that state, and try to be compassionate. I know that when I've traveled in the past to other parts of the world, I felt I had much too much stuff. So it's really a state of mind based on what seems normal. It's transient. Love is great. It's good to have shelter, albeit leaky. And it sucks that ''everyone'' has all this stuff that we can't. Ah. It is what it is. AND I know folks who find a lot of free stuff to do around here, which is possible if you look. You could join a babysitting coop to offset the cost of going out.... Lots of luck and happiness. anon

Families we know at school assume that we can afford to send our child to the enrichment classes that their children go to, but the fact is that we just can't. We don't go on vacations and rarely eat out. There is virtually no disposable income, and I feel guilty about almost everything I buy.

Here is how I try to deal with it- I just give the impression that living the simple life is a conscious, virtuous choice. We don't have cable because we don't want our son to be exposed to commercials! We are trying to reduce our carbon footprint! We are not interested in consumer culture! All of these things are true for us, it's just that they are not always voluntary.

As for dealing with jealousy, I wish I had a good answer for that. Sometimes I feel jealousy too, especially when I visit homes that look like pages from a design magazine, or I see my son's school friends getting into a nice new car. I make an effort not to seem impressed. I just try to look at it this way- there are always people who have more than you and there are always people who have less. The families you feel jealous of also have someone to be jealous of I'm sure! It's human nature. You Are Not Alone!

It feels like your problem is not really permanent, so donC",b"t look for permanent solutions now. Your husbandC",b"s business is ending sure he will find something else eventually. And there will be time for vacation, piano lesson, and ski trips. Meanwhile try to get creative: for example my sister teaches piano lessons to a couple of kids in exchange of Mandarin lessons from these kids mom. YMCA offers a lot of classes and scholarships, so are a bunch of other programs. There are a lot of Berkeley students on Craiglist who will teach piano, tennis etc for not very much.

And yes you need, really need to keep some disposal income for yourself, just go ahead and buy these new jeans. Whether its gloom and doom all around, we are still women and need to feel like ones. Lola

What is "middle income" in the Bay area?

Does anyone know how to get an idea of what constitutes different income levels for the Bay Area (Berkeley, in particular)? We're trying to set up a budget, but it seems that our combined incomes don't cover the basics that they should. If I knew what was considered standard, or ''middle,'' or even ''middle-upper,'' etc., I'd have some context for what we're trying to do. We'll eventually look for a financial planner, but I need to do do some initial research first.

Is everyone making a ton more money than us?

Am I being totally ridiculous? I used to think my husband made a decent amount of money (about $80K, which I don't normally blab, but feel this is pretty anonymous). We (husband, baby, me) are well fed, clothed, and sheltered (tiny place, but cozy). Recently, I've been questioning whether or not he actually is doing well, in terms of salary. Friends and relatives (our age, late 20s) are buying $500K houses, nice cars, vacations. Houses in our not so nice neighbor are now selling for over $400K (we bought our house for half that a couple of years ago). How are people doing it? Is everyone just making a ton more money than us?? Please advise- am I being silly? Or do we need a reality check?? Perplexed- Where are you getting all this money??

I empathize with your comment about ''how do they do it?'' We are constantly running into fellow Berkeleyans who seem far more committed to their principles than we are - they would never work for a soulless corporation as I do, they would never send their kids to daycare, they would never send their kids to public school when private schools are so much better, etc! We, too, wonder how they do it. But most often, when we get to know these people a little better, we realize that they have lots of money from other sources, primarily well-off parents, which neither of us have. So we take it all with a grain of salt.

It IS financially difficult for a middle-class couple to make it in the bay area, and especially to achieve the dream of homeownership. You could do it, probably, but you'd have to make those sacrifices - a long commute, living in a neighborhood you find less than ideal, & possibly working outside the home - that some of our silver spoon friends would never understand. As with the rest of life, it's ''this or that, but not both.'' squeezed

As to how they are doing it, well, it's impossible to know about other people's individual circumstances but consider that given today low's interest rates and the fact that mortagage interest is deductible, today it costs about the same to buy a house than to rent (for example, that $450K house may mean a $1700 monthly payment after taxes). The same can be said about nice cars - given today's low interest rates and extended payment periods, the monthly payments can be affordable to many. Also remember that people often overspend and go in debt for things like vacations. anon

I think folks are constantly trying to 'keep up with the Joneses' & perhaps are feeling the crunch, too but don't want to show it.

PS- $80K is a very respectable salary! six figure salary & still struggling!

And lastly, I have a friend whose husband has family money and that is how they do all the vacations/home/etc. that you probably see around you. I would guess that at least some people that you are seeing have savings or money that is not related to their jobs and is contributing to an enviable lifestyle. It's hard to compare to that. I know the temptation is very real though. I know how you feel sometimes.

You are so young and doing so good....Look at other ppl, ppl who are intelligent hardworking, with good education, but things just didnt go right for them.....and are struggling...they are happy if they are able to put food on the table for thier kids. Forget about houses and cars............ I think instead of wondering why and how ppl are getting cars and vacations....Reach out to the communty, try to have compasion for ppl who are making effort and need a little boost from the fortunate ones. Be a friend to someone, Thier are a lo more things you can do rather than wonder how come...they have this and that ...and i dont.........This is greed.keep away from it.....Take care and enjoy your blessings sherry

You own a house (and therefore have to pay taxes, insurance, etc.) so things probably feel a little tight.

I just read ''The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle Class Mothers and Fathers are Going Broke'' and it really paints a stark picture of how the government considers us to be ''affluent'' but really, every penny goes to keeping the family afloat.

As to why people can afford to spend $500,000 on a house, lenders have lowered their standards. There are more no money down loans, more 80/10 loans. It used to be the rule was you should spend no more than 2-3 times your annual salary on a house. Now people spend 3 to 5 times their annual salary.

I wonder where people are getting their money, too. I think a lot of people are up to their eyeballs in debt, car loans, home equity loans, credit card debt. Some people are probably good with money, and some people just earn a lot.

I try not to compare our family with others, but its hard. We really would like a newer, bigger car (I drive a '89 Jeep and my husband drives a '98 Honda Accord) and a three bedroom house. (We have a boy and a girl and a two-bedroom house). But for us, its more important not to be in debt, have a low mortgage and to have a cash cushion.

BTW, if you want to borrow my copy of the book, email me and I will leave it out for you. pgm

I'm sure there are people out there who are earning every cent they spend, but a lot of people living the good life in the Bay Area are doing it with a little (or a lot) of help! Tax the rich!

We are a family of six (2 adults, 9yoB, 7yoB, 4yoG, 2yoG) and if I remember correctly, we made $28K last year. I know it was under $30K.

I buy all the kids clothes at Thriftown, wait, I buy EVERYTHING at Thriftown! :) Books, kitchen stuff, clothes, bedding (not blankets - we usually use sleeping bags instead of blankets), shoes, organizing stuff, dressers, bookcases, art (well, one piece i fell in love with) and do most of my clothes buying when they have their 1/2 off all clothing days. I have memorized (pretty much) the prices of all the food staples I buy and shop at Williams Natural Grocery, Trader Joes, Berkeley Bowl, Raleys, Safeway (mostly just for WIC stuff) and Costco to get the best buys. If your memory isn't that reliable (mine ONLY works for food prices :)), get a book and track the prices of all the staples you get until you *know* where they are the cheapest.

I never (well, hardly ever :)) buy processed food. I try to make my own bread, we buy little paper goods (only toliet paper which is used to supplement the cloth wipes we normally use). I make our own soap (this is REALLY simple - just melt and pour, but cheaper and cleaner than anything I've found). I water down all our liquid soaps (detergent also) and find great results watering down 1/3 soap to 2/3 water. I recycle all plastic bags and don't need to buy any as I simply use the ones I get at BB or in packaging. We have free dialup and just got cable TV (but get the $25/month one and I'm not sure if we'll keep it. Basic cable is only about $14/mo). We have 2 cars and do the maintenance ourselves - but they are easy - 1985 VW Vans.

We were incredibly lucky to buy our house before the boom (we actually bought in a buyer's market - can you believe such a thing? :)) and have recently refinanced to take $200/mo off our payments.

We have high deductibles on our cars and the house. We rarely use the heat in the winter and have no A/C. We hang our clothes to dry. We do not make toll or long distance calls - our phone bill is about $8 a month.

We do not go out for movies (I think we went to a theatre in 1996, but that would be the last time :)) and very rarely go out for dinner.

I buy all dairy, high fat, meat, selected fruits and veggies organic. We have oatmeal a lot for breakfast.

IMO, and being able to own our home makes a HUGE difference, you can live really cheaply here in the bay area - as long as you're already in a home. The biggest thing that has helped me is to ask myself before I purchase something if it is a need or a want. If it is a need, we save up for it.

Oh, and the biggest saver is probably homeschooling. Nah, the biggest saver is having bought our home in 1995. We were so incredibly lucky. I hope some of this might have helped.

Oh, I make my own tinctures (herbal remedies) and never go to the doctor, but then again, we have MediCal, so that's not too much of a help... Kathy

I think the best way to look at it is to imagine that ''Bay Area dollars'' are a foreign currency. Say the exchange rate is about 2 Bay Area dollars to one ''Other U.S. dollar''. So, if you're earning $80K here, your standard of living will probably be about the same as someone earning $40K in, say, the Midwest.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being paid in ''Bay Area dollars''. For one thing, salaries are higher here, so if you do happen to have any money left over after paying the bills ;-) , you can probably afford more luxury items like vacations or other items which are sold on a nationwide basis. Of course, there are also disadvantages, like being taxed as though you were ''upper middle class'' when you're really ''lower middle class.'' ;-/

Every now and then I think of moving... but then I ask myself, where in the world could I find another place that has such good weather, great neighbors and friends, great politics and an atmosphere of tolerance? Where could I find a better place to raise my children? So we don't have a big house with a big yard or an SUV... who cares? My children are learning to be good people. They're learning tolerance and appreciating diversity. And, they're learning the value of a dollar (Bay Area or other) and the importance of hard work. loves this ''country''

I think people who live in this area, own a house, go on nice vacations, etc. must have some sort of savings or family money they can fall back on. Or, they didn't start their adult lives with debt (school loans, car, credit card) that they're trying to pay off at the same time. Learning all the time

I buy clothes at thrift stores, consignment shops, outlets, and during the July/January sales ONLY (and that way I can indulge my shopaholic tendencies). Our cars are 13 and 7 years old (and are moderately priced). We are staunch supporters of Berkeley public schools. We only use credit cards for some vacation expenses(and agree how much to spend and by when the credit card will be paid off). We buy large appliances, etc. when stores are offering ''free interest'' and pay them off within the ''free'' time frame. We have a monthly budget and include savings as a ''bill'' to be paid up front - we also put aside every month for irregular expenses such as summer day camp, property tax, etc. Only THEN, do we have expendable cash for eating out, etc.

Some of our friends drive expensive SUV's, only buy at Nordstrom's and laugh at our ''cheapness''. But, we believe living ''below our means'' will prepare us to weather layoffs, illnesses, college tuition, and hopefully retirement. It has also been the ONLY way we have been able to deal with aging parent issues.

Being ''average'' in the Bay Area means making trade offs about what is important to you - if you are a SAHM, that is a choice that you and your husband made. To blame your husband for not making more, isn't fair in my opinion. I'm sure that he's stressed out being the sole bread winner as it is. After all, $80,000 in a GOOD salary that most would envy, its certainly a professional salary (more than TWO starting teacher salaries!) - unfortunately in the Bay Area $80,00 for a family of 4 is lower middle class. If that's not the level you are prepared to live within - you and your husband may have to consider relocating OR rethinking how important being a SAHM is to your family. Karen H.

Things we DON'T have or buy:
- fancy cars
- expensive vacations
- we have no debt other than our mortgage
- we've also decided we can't do private school
- we also get no outside help and when we got married we had absolutely no debt and about $60K combined in savings. I don't know how we do it -- like I said, I don't think our income is that high for this area, but I feel we live really well. Though when I look at what kind of house we could buy in another part of the country I do dream of moving... Anon