Jewish and trying to decide

Hello all, My husband and I are in a real bind. I am Jewish caucasian and he is Korean-American and of Catholic origin (but not practicing). We had a Jewish wedding and enjoy sharing many Jewish rituals and holidays together. Our trouble now is that we cannot agree on whether to circumcize our son or not. In truth, I am myself not in agreement with the practice, but feel strongly about a) giving my son a range of options in terms of his own spiritual choices later on by starting him off in life as circumcized, and b) providing him with a strong sense of Jewish physical identity when he is around other Jews in his community - he will already look physically different from most Jewish kids, and I don't want him to be constantly teased about not being circumcized. My husband feels that we should not be engaging in a practice out of pressure to conform, just to avoid teasing. I'm really wondering if anyone has experience with older Jewsih kids, teens, or young adults who were not circumcized. Here in the Bay Area, might it be less common to be uncircumcized? Should we be basing our decision on the fear of being ostracized, even if we don't believe in the practice? Thanks for your thoughts, Esther

As far as pressure to conform, I agree with your husband on this one, but even more so since it's not about conforming to fashion trends or changeable things, but about something that is essentially a permanent choice.

As far as giving him choices (which you brought up), if you leave him intact, he can later make the choice to chop, but he gets no choice if you chop at birth.

Being teased about his penis seems REALLY unlikely to me, unless I'm way out of touch with society these days. In what day-to-day experiences will he be showing his genitals to others?? Is this something schoolboys do?

I have noticed that beliefs around circumcision are a lot different these days than when we were babies. People seem much more open to either way, where previously there was a predominance to circumcise. I am guessing that when he reaches sexual maturity, there will not be a stigma associated with having an intact penis, and there may be just as many boys intact as there are boys circumcised. I am guessing him being ostracized is an imagined fear.

It is always possible to circumcise later, should he want this. I know someone who was circumcised at age 19. I don't think it's possible to get the skin back, however, if cut at birth. I don't think you should base the decision on peer pressure or teasing. It's too personal of a choice to let those things influence it. You have to make the decision based on what you feel is right (whichever way that is). Your strong feelings of Jewish physical identity will of course influence this, although I know that you are Jewish if your mother is, therefore he will already have the proper lineage stuff, regardless that he is bi-racial. anon

My son is now six, by the way, and came to me just the other day saying that I had forgotten to have his penis cut off when he was a baby. We talked about the foreskin and why some boys have it cut off and some don't (his non-Jewish dad and all his Jewish male cousins are circumcised, so he knows the difference), and he seemed perfectly content to be intact. I don't know long-term how he'll deal, but my dad's story about Moses has helped me out of more than one conversation with others in my family!

May your son be healthy and bring many blessings to you and your family. Happy Mom of Happy Son

The one idea I had about your question, though, was if your son grows up in a more Jewish culture than my sons did, and falls in love with a religious Jew. As it happened, my oldest son went away to college in a more conservative state, and fell in love with a very orthodox Jewish girl. I liked her a lot and thought their relationship was a good one. They were together for 3 years. She told him from the start that he would have to convert to Judaism if their relationship was to get more serious (because I, the mom, am not Jewish so therefore he isn't either). He ended up making the decision that conversion was something he was not willing to do. If he hadn't been circumcised, I have no doubt this would also have been a condition for his girlfriend. And knowing my son, I'm sure this would have been a deal-breaker. In my experience, teens and young men are not exactly wildly enthusaistic about the idea of adult circumcision. So, it's just something to think about. I never had any expectation that my sons would marry Jews -- it's fine if they do and fine if they don't. But if you do have this desire for your son, then it might be worth it to think about what happens when he's in his 20's and in love with a young woman like my son's girlfriend. Not a Jewish Mother

I've researched this passage as a grad student in Jewish Studies and presented two papers at national conferences on it. The sources debate who it was that gets circumcized, even considering that ''her son'' refers to Moses himself (rather than the recently born Eliezer, although since Egyptian royalty was circumcized this is unlikely) and there are a number of different explanations offered as to why the circumcision wasn't done in the first place (have time for a few stories?). I don't recall ever seeing anything about an ''animal foreskin'' being a ''substitute''. I welcome a reference to such an interpretation, but it sounds to me like either the poster or her father are confusing the substitution of a ram in the story of the binding of Isaac with this story. It's pretty clear that _someone_ isn't circumcised, that God threatens Moses' life because of it, and that God is appeased by the blood of the circumcison.

This is all a digression from the original question, but I wanted to point it out because I see a number of claims about Judaism, ''historical circumcision'', and the like from the no-circ folks that are either not accurate, or theories that are passed off as fact.

There are many liberal Jews in this area who have chosen not to circumcise. There are many Russian Jews and some European Jews who aren't circumcised. Kids don't have the same hang-ups around the issue as we grown-ups do. We circumcised our sons because it had meaning for us, and we made a commitment to make it meaningful for our sons. If it is not meaningful to you, if you can't make the commitment to have it be meaningful to your son, then don't. My sons know they are circumcised because they are Jewish. They know that some Jewish boys aren't in the same way that many of the Jews we know (including their grandparents) don't keep Kosher (we do). They also know that some non-Jewish boys are circumsized because there are _some_ parents and _some_ doctors who _believe_ is is healthier.

Recovering ABD

Hello to all! I am a soon-to-be mother of a boy who was raised in a Jewish home, attended a conservative congregation growing up, had a bat mitzvah, but in general my family is not very religious. As an adult, I only practice Judaism on the major holidays, and mostly attend services at Jewish renewal congregations, but am not a member anywhere. My husband is not Jewish, yet does not practice any other form of organized religion. We both consider ourselves spiritual people, and pull from many different spiritual traditions in our lives to add meaning and tradition. We would like to expose our son to his Jewish heritage, as well as other forms of spirituality. The issue of circumcision has been a major one for me for the past several months, since I found out the child I am carrying is a boy. I have several friends (non-jews) who had boys and did not circumcise them, and I am very aware of the medical arguments for and against circumcision. I think that if I didn't have any pressure either way, I'd probably decide not to circumcise my son, because I don't think I could put him through that for the sole reason that he is Jewish. However, what I didn't prepare for is the strong pressure I am getting from my mother, who will not stop telling me that it is very important to her that we have our son circumcised. She doesn't even care if we have a bris, she just wants us to get him circumcised, because if we don't, he would be the only male in the family who is not. I guess what I need is some advice from other Jewish parents who decided not to circumcise their sons, if they had ''alternative'' ceremonies in leui of a normal bris, and how they may have dealt with family pressures and general comments about their decisions. I'm having a hard time even imagining how to tell my mother/family if I decide not to circumcise my son, even though that is where I am leaning right now. Any advice is greatly appreciated!! Jewish Mom-to-be

On the bigger issue of family pressure about parenting decisions... we definitely get it from both sides, about various issues (my parents don't understand that we don't want our son to have EVERY toy in the world, my husband's mom thinks I'm doing my toddler a disservice by still breastfeeding). We are just firm - this is what we want to do, and thanks for the advice but we're doing it differently. Jen

I did ask a rabbi (Reconstructionist) about it later and she said of course males can be Jewish even if uncircumcised. It has been helpful to have that information sometimes in responding to comments. As far as the family stuff, it was hard, but when we decided the same thing about our second son the naysayers didn't bother us. And all the relatives love the boys.

Good luck with your decision.
been there, more or less

I decided ahead of time to arrange to have a baby naming ceremony, in our home, on the eighth day after the birth. I was in grad school at the time (not in the Bay Area), and not a member of a temple, but I got the name of a rabbi who was accostomed to dealing with interfaith couples. He came to the house, did a nice ceremony with a few friends and my parents, and gave us a beautiful certificate with our son's Hebrew name. My parents made a donation to his temple, and all were happy.

My parents ended up being very happy with the naming ceremony (and they got their ''bris-fix'' with my sister's two boys in the last three years), and frankly I think they were surprised that there could be a religious ceremony without the bris -- with three daughters, they'd never had a naming ceremony for any of us.

My advice is, do what feels right for you. Five years later, my parents havn't mentioned anything to me about it since, and my son is so far unaware that he is the only known uncircumcised member of my family for generations. Tara

Essentially, the decision is yours and your husband's. When you change your son's diaper, will you be feeling guilty when you are reminded of his circumcision or will you be happily reaffirming your decision not to circumcize? And as for your mother's saying that he will be the only one in the family left intact, well, someone's got to be first, right?

This is probably only the first of many issues where your parents' views will be different from yours and you will have to make a decision and stick to it. Good luck in your resolve. anon

So, we have raised our son with Judiasm, but without circumcsion. We did have a beautiful bris, he attended the Jewish Community Center preschool and Camp Kee Tov in the summer. He is now participating in a weekly religious/Hebrew school class. He is well rooted in his Jewishness and has not yet figured out that his penis looks any different than many of his friends or his father's. When and if he does ask, I will feel comfortable explaining our reasons for our decision.

My only lingering concern is if he someday has a Jewish sexual partner for whom circumcision is important. My hope is that more and more Jewish families will opt to leave their sons intact and there will be a normalizing effect. s

What amazed us was the huge fits thrown by both our mothers, who even objected to the fact that we posted a picture of our diaperless baby on our website, revealing his uncircumcised penis to the world (a friend who is anti-circ congratulated us for making an anti-circ ''statement'' by posting the picture -- we'd just thought it was a cute photo.) Even our pediatrician, a Jew, got into the act, demanding to know what would happen if our son decided he wanted to be a rabbi. A close friend, who, as a doctor, counsels her patients that she sees circumcision as elective surgery with all the attendant risks, ended up circumcising her own son because of the pressure that came from both sets of Jewish grandparents, none of whom even make it to temple on High Holidays. She cried all the way through the bris. So the pressure you're getting sounds pretty typical.

All I can tell you is, as unhappy as both grandmothers were at the time, it blew over pretty fast, and by the time they held my son in their arms for the first time, the state of his penis was pretty far from their minds. I've picked and chosen among every other aspect of Judaism, so I feel fine about having charted my own course on this one. And my son (now 5)has never once asked why his penis looks different from his dad's. I encourage you to make the choice that feels right to you -- this won't be the first time that your mom expresses disappointment or disapproval over some parenting choice you make, believe me. But in the end, you're the mom, and if you're doubtful about whether you made the right choice, you'll enjoy the bris about as much as my doctor friend did. A Jew Who Didn't Circumcise

It was also amazing for us to articulate, first to each other, and then to those close to us, our principles and ideology of being parents and raising people in this world. It was a very short but, if I may say so myself, a beautiful and very touching ceremony (that also seemed to be the opinion of those who attended). But most importantly it was a way for us to retain what we felt was valuable in our tradition (the idea of a special covenant between a newborn and his world) while infusing it with content that reflected our own values and was unique to who we are.

It also made the bitter pill of caving into the circumcision easier to swallow.

Much joy and happiness to you. ben

Before we decided I spoke with the rabbi at Temple Sinai in Oakland and asked whether or not our son would be considered jewish if he was uncircumsized. The rabbi told me that while he would be Jewish, he would not be able to be buried in a Jewish cememtary because he would not have been consecrated to God. I decided I could live with that. There's obviously more to it than that in terms of the religious aspects and you may need to pursue that in a deeper way to figure out how much it means to you.

And then there's the whole family side of the decision. It came as a complete surprise to me who in my family had a hard time with it. I grew up in a pretty atheistic and non-practicing family, from grandparents on down. We celebrated Passover and Channukah with very little religious context. Only my younger cousins had bar/bat mitzvahs. It made it easier that my mom was supportive (and continues to send me articles supporting the decision). And the relatives who were critical, I listened to and since then we've never talked about it (my dad & grandparents). I do feel a bit awkward when my son prances around naked when they're around, but I figure it's their issue and not mine now. over the regrets

My advice - if you don't want to circumcise - don't. Your parents will get used to the idea & will soon move on to giving you their other (unwanted?) parenting advice. Good luck and congratulations. anon

The Circumcision Debate: For centuries Brit Milah, ritual circumcision had been the ultimate affirmation of Jewish identity, but recently a growing number of Jews are leaving their sons uncircumcised. As part of this on-going dialogue we are presenting two workshops exploring the arguments for and against circumcision.

Tuesday, June 1, 2004 7:30 Circumcision: The Covenant of Brit Milah Join Rabbi/ Mohel Chanan Feld and Rabbi Yehuda Ferris for an exploration of the covenant, tradition and medical relevance of circumcision as a powerful and enduring Jewish life cycle event.

Wednesday, June 9,7:30 Circumcision? Questions, Concerns and Alternatives Growing number of Jews view circumcision as a part of Jewish law that they can no longer accept. Join Rabbi Kai Eckstein and Dr. Mark Reiss for an informative discussion focusing on questions about ritual circumcision and an alternative naming ceremony Brit Shalom - designed to bring baby boys into the covenant.

BRJCC
1414 Walnut ST
Berkeley,CA
For information call: 
(510) 848-0237x112or www.brjcc.org 

I have never agonized over anything in my life so much as this choice. (Of course, it didn't help to be postpartum and suffering crazy hormone swings...) Before my son was born, I had decided to circumcise him. I am Jewish; my husband is not; my Jewishness pretty much consists of celebrating Passover every year, and I wanted very much to link my son with his Jewish history, and have his birth be the beginning of being more connected myself.

And then he was born. And I began to doubt. I called everyone I knew, and a whole lot of people I didn't, and talked it over for hours. I cried and cried and cried. My choice changed every day. The party was planned, our friends were invited, the rabbi was scheduled. Exactly twelve hours before the rabbi would've come (the last time I could reach him) I called him off, holding my breath to keep from crying on the phone. My husband stayed up all night and wrote the most beautiful ritual I had ever seen, incorporating all the things that I'd wanted to get from the circumcision -- connection to family and Jewish history, welcoming into the community, making pledges to each other, giving him a Hebrew name -- and in the morning we performed it with all our friends, who had bravely gathered not knowing whether they were attending a bris or a non-bris. It was one of the happiest days of my life and I have never once regretted our choice after that night-before. (My son is now three and a half.)

You will have to make your own choice, and I am behind you completely either way. If you happen to choose the same way we did, and would like to know more about the ceremony we did, I'd be happy to share it with you. (Our midwife took a copy and I believe makes it available to clients of hers who are struggling with the same difficult choice -- see, you are not alone!) alyson

Are there Jewish and/or interfaith couples out there who have struggled with the circumcision issue? We would be interested in hearing about your decision making process. Were you initially opposed to the idea, but ended up doing it? What factors particuarly influenced your decision? Did you decide not to circumcise your Jewish son? If so, did you encounter resistance from your family and/or religious community? Please do not send general arguments either against or for circumcision for Jews, as we have studied and thought about the issue extensively. We have also read the website postings, and at this point are most interested in hearing from other Jewish families who have had a difficult time with this major decision. Anon.

My husband is circumcised but did not feel that his son should necessarily be circumcised. In fact, he started out feeling very strongly that we should not circumcise. I, being Jewish, and knowing that my parents would be probably be devestated if we didn't have our son circumcised, was very torn. I felt that I needed other reasons to feel that it was a justifiable procedure.

We started out emailing each other articles (with snide comments prefacing them!) at work. I was sending pro-circumcision articles and he was sending con. This went on for a while and then we started to have more emotional conversations about it. He had been to a couple brit milah's for my nephews and didn't enjoy the experience, to say the least. I was having feelings of guilt, obligation etc. We ended up deciding to have the circumcision in the hospital and then having a symbolic bris/baby naming at a later time. As I mentioned before, we had a girl.

3 months ago we had our second child, a son. Without much discussion this time, we had our son circumcised in the hospital when he was a day old. I've had lots of feelings around it and would be happy to share them with you if you're interested. Please let me know. It's certainly a very difficult decision and also a very permanent one. I'm still very torn but honestly think that we would probably make the same decision again.

Best of luck. Nancy

After all our learning it felt to us that the practice was archaic. Even our Rabbi agreed that our son could have a covenant with god in other ways.

I was surprised at many people's reaction. Only one family member, who is actively Jewish gave us any slack. She just believed strongly that we must do the bris.

The others who gave us a hard time were not even actively Jewish, They sometimes do a little something for the holidays, but have little commitment. We pretty much pushed the comments aside by stating we did what our pediatrician, Rabbi and ourselves believe is right. Eventually they gave up.

We were concerned about the issue of looking different ''down there'' but found many of our friends sons and even our closet young cousin are not circumcised.

This is a tough decision. I hope you are able to discover what you think is right and to go with it.

Best to you in your decision. Wendy

The most compelling arguments against, for me, are:

* I don't have much respect for tradition for tradition's sake. I'd rather be among those to stop an unhealthy or ill-advised tradition.
* It is not a trivial piece of skin you are removing, but a sheath that covers the entire penis, which for an adult male is a significant piece of skin, full of nerve endings and an integral part of the sex organ. I have been surprised to find that people who have circumcised their own sons have been unaware of what exactly they're removing when they circumcise-- which fuels my concern that a tradition is being perpetuated with a kind of thoughtlessness perhaps only possible because it's such a personal or embarrassing or taboo topic
* It's not important to us that the boy's penis resemble his father's (I don't get this argument at all)
* It seems to me more and more parents are choosing not to circumcise, so being different from one's peers won't be a big issue for boys born now, if it ever was. I haven't encountered or read about anyone who says as an older boy or teen or adult he had a hard time because he wasn't circumcised and thus different from his peers--why are people so concerned about this? I do think about my son going someday to a predominantly Jewish summer camp or something, and maybe being aware of being different, but is this a reason to remove an integral part of his sex organ?
* It seems that much sexual pleasure is derived from the function of the foreskin
* It seems like a traumatic and painful thing to put a newborn through
* There are risks involved in doing the circumcision; some do get botched, with horrific and life-altering results
* My son can make a choice to be circumcised later if he wants, but could never choose to have his foreskin back if circumcised

I'll be very interested to see what others say. I have also been curious about other Jews choosing not to circumcise. Thanks for bringing this up. Anon.

We were greatly relieved when our first child turned out to be a girl and we could let it rest. Our second (almost two now) is not. My husband was always against circumcision: he felt it to be barbaric and unnecessary. I think it helped that he'd been around when his brother made the decision some years earlier not to circumcise his son (this helped the family, his side at least, be accepting, if not approving). I was much more ambivalent, agreeing, basically, that it seemed unnecessary, but also having some lingering sense that circumcison was the correct Jewish way to go. It was also the norm for me: all the penises I'd ever met had been snipped and that's how I expected him to be. In the end, we decided not to. For me, I finally came around, because it seemed the forward-looking, more humane way to go. Now, by the way, it seems like much less of a big deal. Keep in mind that either way is just fine for your son. Good luck! Eve

What I initially felt was that if we didn't do it, our son would be the only uncircumcised little Jewish boy out there, but I didn't want my perception of isolation or differece to be the motivationg factor in my descision. But now I think that there are many of us, we just don't know each other. Let me say that I'm a fairly secular Jew and I don't belong to a temple. Fortunately, my family easily accepted our decision, but I definitely brought it up before he was born so we could talk about it.

My opinion is that all traditions are changing and growing, even this one. I think it is important to question one's culture and traditions and not just blindly follow along. We actively debate every other aspect of Judaism, so why is this etched in stone? I'm proud of our descision and know it was right for us. I have yet to encounter anything negative from anyone, and if I do, I'll find another group of Jews to hang out with.

a Jewish mom with a Jewish son

That said, if we had felt that medical arguments against circumcision were stronger - and some interpret evidence differently - we wouldn't have done it.

Lastly, I would also recommend that those who do choose to circumcise consider Chanan Feld! He did our older boy, but our younger one was circumcised in the hospital with us present over a week after birth it was a far lengthier procedure, and definitely much more unpleasant! Dan

I'm feeling uncertain about my (our) decision not to have our son circumcised. My reasons were based on the lack of any medical necessity for the procedure and my belief that it's nothing more than an outdated religious ritual. But mostly I just didn't see any reason to inflict needless pain on my baby. I researched the current trends, asked doctors and saw an alarming documentary on the subject. My husband "went along" with my concerns, but we never had much support from the rest of the family. Our son is now nine months old.

My sister-in-law just had a baby boy. She was eager to tell me that he slept right through the circumcision. Now I'm afraid I've made the wrong choice for my son who's the one who has to live with my decision! What's a circumcision like for an older child or adult? What are other parents doing with their sons?

We didn't circumcise our son, who is now almost 3 months old. It wasn't a hard decision for us to make, since we are not Jewish or Muslim. The United States seems to be the only place in the world where routine non-religious circumcision is performed. Is there any reason you think your son would want a circumcision later in life? Adult circumcisions are extremely painful, from what I understand. My advice is, don't worry about it. The decision has already been made, and agonizing over it will only make your son feel like something's wrong.

We have an 18 month old boy and we chose not to circumcise him against the strong wishes of my Jewish parents for the same reasons you mentioned (no strong medical evidence of benefits...etc.). However, after living with the consequences I am beginning to regret our decision. My parents got over it and haven't mentioned it since we argued the initial decision. However, dealing with the hygiene issue is much more difficult that I expected. I'm sure that as he gets older and the foreskin becomes able to recede, cleaning may not be a big deal. However, for the past 18 months and for some time to come it will require daily attention and I still think he is much more prone to infections than a circumcised child. At the time I thought that performing surgery to reduce the chances of a rare cancer just didn't make sense. In retrospect I think going through what I've heard is a fairly simple and quick procedure would have been the better choice for us. Does anyone have experience with circumcising older children? I'm certain the trauma would be significantly greater now but has anyone done it at 18 months of age or older and what are your thoughts? Are uncircumcised people more prone to other problems (yeast infections...etc)? Please help. I don't want to wait longer to make this decision.

My personal experience: When our baby boy was born in August my wife and I had discussed the circumcision question. She was against doing the operation. I was ambivalent about it but now that our little baby is almost 3 months old I am glad we did not do a circumcision. It wasn't the pain issue. It's this: Now he can decide when he's older what he wants to do. The decision is now left to him. If we'd proceeded on our own, he'd never, ever, ever, be able to do anything about it. Ever. Pretty simple, eh? So my advice to the new mom is, you have done fine! Don't give it a second thought! Let your grown son deal with it later; he can make the decision for himself. I would have rather liked that explanation from my own parents (grin)!

With regard to the mother who's questioning her decision to not circumcise. When my son was born 16 years ago, I decided not to circumcise him. Neither his father nor I had any definite feelings on the subject one way or another, but it wasn't until I was doing my post-surgery walk past the nursery and heard a baby screaming, only to ask a nurse and discover that the baby was being circumcised...that's when I made my decision! The only problem I can say you need to be careful of, if you don't clean it and pull the skin off the head (sorry for the graphic description), it will start to grow together. And as they get older, you still have to make sure the area underneath the foreskin is clean and let your son know about cleaning himself properly as he gets older. I'm sure your pediatrician told you this. My son who is now 16 has never had any problems or comments on it in the locker room in school and is totally comfortable with himself. I wouldn't worry about your choice.

My son had his circumcision done across the hall from my hospital room and I can verify that he screamed bloody murder when it was in process. I am sure it was painful and I don't know if I would opt to have it done again with another child. Dr. Dean Edell speaks vehemently about there being absolutely no necessity for it. Good luck with your decision.

My son is now 12 years old and was not circumcised for exactly the same reasons you chose not to circumcise your son. We also did not receive much family support for the decision, although no real opposition to it either. So far, there have been absolutely no problems, medical or social. It has basically been a non-issue and I see no reason for it to become one.

mothering magazine has had several issues and a special publication on circumscision if your interested 1- 888- 984- 8116.

Re: circumcision. I, too, elected not to have my son circumcised, based mostly on the thought that it was his body, not mine. I've worked in the Middle East a bit and am somewhat familiar with Islamic practices, where boys are circumcised at around age 13 as a rite of passage into adulthood.

Although some Islamic cultures treat this as a real macho test of a boy's ability to withstand pain, most areas and people are very sensible about it and anesthetic and so forth are used and it's not such a big deal. And there are tens of millions of Moslem men walking around today who had this procedure done at this age and are neither physically nor emotionally crippled.

So my reasoning is that there is plenty of time and that my son can decide for himself if and when he wants it done. Jewish culture traditionally goes for the 8th day and I think it is very important for many traditional Jewish people, a sign of the child's covenant with God. However, if you have no strong belief's like this, I don't see a need to rush into such a procedure. Let him decide for himself.

My son is eight and uncircumcised. So far no problems at all with the lack of procedure. His father was born in rural Louisiana in the middle fifties where it was not common to circumcise. He never had the procedure done and also never any problems....I did't see a medical reason for the procedure and am curious about the content of the 'alarming documentary' you saw. Can you remember the name and where it aired?

I have two sons, one is 1.5 and the oldest is 4 years old. We had our oldest son circumcised but ran into a problem when the bell that they fix on the penis fell off leaving a knob of skin still attached. We had to take him into the doctor's office and have a floss type of string wrapped around the knob of skin so that it will fall off... Believe me, it was a painful experience to watch him scream and can not even image what the first procedure must of been like. Well, anyway the knob fell off leaving a little pocket (scar) in his penis. When our second son was born, we decided against it. It they are not born with their foreskin cut and pull back then to us, it is not necessary. I've heard horror stories of uncircumcised penises but to experience the above for our oldest is not worth it. Circumcision is definitely an individual decision.

Well, we decided not to circumcise our kiddo, now 7 months, for most of the reasons you mention: there is no medical necessity, a foreskin does not really complicate hygiene, lots of little boys are not circumcised, why not keep all original parts if possible, and no religious tradition to adhere to that made it obligatory or quasi-obligatory. But if my husband had felt strongly that the baby should be circumcised, I could have gone along with that, too. I tend to agree that it probably doesn't hurt a newborn that much; at a bris I attended recently, the baby cried much louder and longer about some annoyance well before the ceremony than he did during the actual circumcision. I have no idea what circumcision at 9 months would mean; I do know, however, from a friend who went through it (for a particularly unreasonable and demanding woman who later dumped him, too!) that adult circumcision is a dreadful experience. In my mothers' group, 2 of 4 little boys are uncircumcised. Other friends have also made different choices. Either decision is perfectly valid; one thing you can be pretty sure of is that your son will see plenty of other uncircumcised little boys as he grows up. I think you should stop worrying about it; it'll be fine.

You didn't make the wrong decision for all the reasons you cited. You made an informed decision. Your sister-in-law made a decision too, it was just different. I had a son this year and because we didn't have any religious reasons to have him circumcised, we didn't. We have never regretted our decision.

When our son was born, my wife and I bounced back and forth on this decision hourly it seemed. Finally we decided to do it; BIG mistake for us personally (I repeat personally). Our son had it done on the 7th day after birth and it was horrid. My wife couldn't bear to go, so I took him. We won't be doing this for our next child. Our son fought and wailed and screeched and changed all manner of color the human body is capable of while I sat there debating whether to shoot myself for putting him through it. Granted almost 4 years later he doesn't remember a thing, and of course he lived through it. But being that we found no medical reason to have it done, it was a mistake for our family. If we have another boy and the issue of "why mine doesn't look like so-and-so's" comes up, we'll just handle it. Finally, for emphasis, this was our personal experience. A bucket full of blessings to whoever had the child that slept through the procedure.

Both my sons were circumcised some years ago at birth and I have not regretted it. However, what I DO regret is letting them do it without anesthesia. I am very sorry I didn't insist on that and if I ever have another son, he will be circumcized, but with anesthesia. I don't know why this isn't done - One son had hernia surgery at 3 months under anesthesia and I was told it is very safe for babies. Good grief, even my cats get anesthesia when they go to the vet...

As a woman I can't speak from personal experience, but my father had to have a circumcision for medical reasons when he was 14. He says that the procedure was harmless, it happened under anesthesia and there was hardly any pain afterwards. So I guess the only decision from your side that your son would have to live with forever is to have a circumcision now, since it's irreversible. If you don't do it now and he needs it later for whatever reason (religious or medical) he can still get it.

I had a baby boy 5/20/98, and we did not have him circumcised, although every male in my and my husbands family has been for generations. I was unsure at first, then I read an article with graphic descriptions and photos, a historical perpective of the operation, and statitics (such as the risk of injury to the penis due to the circumcision is much greater than the risk of problems due to not being circumcisced in the future). While the risk of either is very small, this helped me put the thing in perspective: I had the option to cut off a large peice of my babys genitals. I thought that nature knows best, and I would let my son keep his parts. I now feel very sure that we did the right thing. Although my family is not so sure, citing a few penis statistic usually makes them so uncomfortable that they quickly change the subject.

Not to drag out the circumcision discussion too long, but a couple of posters mentioned "extra cleaning" that they felt was required on an uncircumcised penis, pulling back the foreskin, etc. My understanding (esp. from the *Mothering* magazine articles on the subject) is that this kind of extra care is unnecessary and perhaps risky in terms of exposing skin that is not meant to be exposed. I specifically remember the doctor-author of the article saying, "Leave the foreskin alone, don't retract it." Perhaps someone with more specific knowledge can back me up on this, but in our family, we never mess with it (our son is 4). The suggestion that the foreskin will grow together unless manually retracted is contrary to the laws of evolution: how could our species have survived if leaving the body alone disables the ability to pee, let alone reproduce?

Just a brief response to the Dad concerned about the cleaning ritual involved with non-circumcized infants... is this something specific to your son? The advice is to NOT do anything specific to clean an uncircumcized penis (just soap and water on the outside like any other body part). NEVER try to retract the foreskin while it is still adhered to the head of the penis (this can last until 5 or 6 years of age, possibly even older, and is normally not a problem- it will eventually become retractable)- forceably retracting a tight foreskin can cause pain, damage and infection and is normally completely unnecessary. My son (nearly 2) is not circumcized and we have never paid any particular attention to cleaning his penis differently from any other part of him. So far he has experienced no problems and the foreskin is still not retractable. The doctor was even able to do a catheter urine collection when he was 21 months of age (he had a febrile seizure and they wanted to rule out infection) without disturbing the foreskin's adhesion.

I did not have my son circumscised at birth because I thought it was barbaric. The doctor told me to make sure my son did not retract the foreskin and leave it like that because it might hurt him. Well, he was so good about it that the foreskin grew together with a hole that was eventually the size of a pinprick. It was life threatening because he could barely pee out of it, and he had to be circumscised at age eight, which requires general anesthetic and a week to heal (not to mention the trauma). Since this happened I have heard of two more boys who had to be circumscised when they were older due to this same problem, so this is rare, but not unheard of.

I researched the issue for BabyCenter, the Web site I work for. I think we
present both sides of the issue fairly well in our Great Debate. The
information discusses the pros and cons and links you to a bulletin board
where you can see people discussing this highly controversial issue. Click
here: http://www.babycenter.com/debates/overview7.html

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I had the same thoughts and fears as you regarding circumcision - felt it
was barbaric, but wanted to do the right thing long-term for my son.  I'm
usually very decisive but this particular issue really had me tied up in
knots.  After much agonizing and asking everyone I knew for their thoughts,
which resulted in getting extremely conflicting advice ranging from you MUST
do it (so the son can "look like" the father and for hygiene reasons) and
you MUST not do it (it's barbaric, there are no valid health reasons for
doing it) all I learned was that people feel VERY strongly about this issue.
Then one of the instructors at my birthing class told me and my husband that
she intended to circumcise her son but when faced with it at the hospital
basically just chickened out.  She said she's had no medical or hygiene
problems with it (which confirmed my pediatrician's advice which was if you
have no religious or cultural reason for doing it, leave well enough alone,
and an uncircumcised penis requires no special care). As for the "looking
like his father" issue, when her son was 5, he asked his dad why his penis
looked different from his, and the father simply said, when I was a baby,
they cut a little piece of it off at the hospital, and the boy just said
"Oh, I'm sorry, Dad!" and that was that.  After hearing that, my husband and
I decided to just wait and see how we felt at the hospital.  When the time
came we willingly "chickened out" too and felt very good about it.  (My
husband, who'd been more in favor of circumcision than I, said "he's perfect
as-is".) I think there are going to be a lot of new millenium boys running
around with their foreskins intact (in California, I think the current stats
are something like 40% of babies are being circumcised, 60% aren't) so you
don't need to worry that your son will be a freak.  Good luck; it is a tough
decision.  If you can't make up your mind now, put it off until the birth
and see how you feel then.  

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My son who is now almost 9 is not circumcised, it's never been an issue.
Many of his peers are not either. My brother (38) and my nephews - (21,
15, 10, 8, and 6 years old) are all - not - and they have never had any
issues, never been laughed at and that's a wide range of ages. We came
as children from a country where circumcision is not and was never
standard so it never even crossed our minds to have our children
circumcised. We have been laughed at for our last name, freckles,
mother's accent and many other things having nothing to do with anything
cultural, just the fact that someone wanted to laugh at one of us. You
can't avoid it. You shouldn't circumcise your son because he might get
laughed at any more than you would scrape his freckles off if he should
have any.

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My husband is not circumcised and grew up in Northern California, and says 
that no one ever made fun of him about it.  My 14-year-old cousin says the 
same. Neither of them seem to feel the least bit "abnormal" and in fact,
there are a lot of uncircumcised men out there, although I agree that they
are still much in the  minority.  With little boys these days, however,
that may not be so true; in my mothers' group, for example, two of the
little boys are circumcised and two are not.  In our babysitting coop, I
don't think any of the little boys are circumcised.  While I do not think
circumcision is at all barbaric - it's part of at least 2 major world
religions, for example - neither do I think it's at all necessary.  If
my husband had felt it to be important, we would probably have
circumcised our son, and I would feel fine about that decision, too.
I really think people make much too much out of the "to circumcise or
not to circumcise" question.  My advice is to do what you want, and
*relax.* You have more important stuff to stress out about.

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My child is 4.5 years old and uncircumcised.  He has had no medical
issues nor problems with other kids, despite "group bath rooming" at
his daycare. At first we thought we would have to do extra hygiene, but
our doctor said that as long as they soak in a bath, nothing special needs
to be done.  By the time the skin had separated enough to clean, he
was old enough (about 2.5 years) to clean it himself in the tub.

This summer he's in camp with kids up to 15 years old and still not a
mention of it.  I don't think he knows that he's circumcised-- he
hasn't even noticed that Dad is different.  We've never mentioned it to him.
(Perhaps it's time!)  In Berkeley, there's so much diversity; across
the nation fewer kids are getting circumcised.  I don't think it will be a
problem elsewhere either.

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We chose not to circumcise our son who is now almost a year old and I
have not once regretted it.  However, I have friends with similar age sons
who did circumcise and do regret it. Our pediatrician also told us that he
regretted having circumcised his son. My husband was circumcised
himself, but after reading as much as we could about the subject he had no
questions as to what he felt was the right decision for our son.  As more 
and more parents choose not to circumcise in the U.S., the concern about
looking like your peers will fade -- and this change is in process.  In 
fact, in you live in the Bay Area, not being circumcised is actually very
common. Also, in most places in the world (though not in Israel, for 
example), the norm is to not be circumcised.  Good luck with your decision!

----------

We did not circumcise our son (who is now almost one year old). The
only boys his age whom I've met have been circumcised only if they're
Jewish. In this area, circumcision is pretty low compared to the rest of 
the U.S.  My husband and I decided not to circumcise because there was
no compelling reason to do so.  My MIL told me that her first bad
decision as a parent was circumcising my husband.  If you don't want 
to do it, don't.

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I don't know where the poster lives, but here in Berkeley boys
who *are* circumsized are in the minority. We had our son
circumsized and I don't think any of his friends are circumsized.
The situation really is different here and now than it was thirty
years ago.

----------

About the circumcision issue: Your  uncircumcised child will not feel
"different" here in California --only 50% of boys are circumcised in
this state.  In  other countries the rate is even lower and in other parts
of the U.S. the rate of circumcision is dropping, albeit slowly. All of
my reading showed that there is no medical reason for it, and a good
argument against it was that the newborn child has no choice, but he
may elect to have it done later if he wants. Whereas once done it
obviously can't be reversed.  We left our boys "intact" and hope that more
children are left with their bodies the way nature made them!

----------

I was born in Denmark, where men are cut rarely, only for 
religious reasons.   Growing up in the US, it was clear that I was
different, but there were only a few times, in grade school dressing
rooms, where other boys asked about it.  As Randal said in the 1998
discussion:

So far, there have been absolutely no problems, medical or social. It
has basically been a non-issue.

On the hygiene issue, I was disturbed to read the comments from "a 
Dad" of an 18 month old, who seems to be pulling back the foreskin
daily. This was not my experience, nor what our pediatrician is advising 
for my 3 year old son.  The foreskin is tight for a reason - to keep junk 
out! That makes it hard to pull back until the boy is older, so don't do
it. I'm not an expert, so consult your own pediatrician, your milage may
vary, ...

At puberty, the foreskin loosens up considerably, so it becomes 
possible to pull it back easily, even over an erection.  Discovery of
masturbation helps this along.  By the time I became sexually active,
it was a non-issue.  Because the foreskin is in place most of the time,
the underlying skin is tender and sensitive.  As the questioner's friends
said, I have a hard time envisioning what it might be like for a
*circumscribed* boy/man.

Of course, you have to decide for yourself.  For me, it's a no 
brainer - natural has no down side, so why cause the baby to suffer?

----------

We did not circumsize  our son despite my jewish mother's dire
warnings (what if when he gets older he wants to marry a jewish girl 
and she wants him circumsized?!)
our son is 14 months old.  of the 9 boys i can think of off the top 
of my head (between 11mos and 4 years), none are circumsized.   i can 
I can think of two, both jewish, who are.  i thinks things are changing 
and by the time our kids get to the locker room, uncircumsized penises
will be pretty common.

-----------


Check out a book in the Public Health Library, 'Just say no to
circumcision' (or something like that) with foreward by Ashley Montague.
Despite the strident title, it gives a lot of detailed information. The
book says that circumcision reduces sensation--that circumcized men
are less likely to use condoms, that sex is more difficult for circumcized
men in late middle age, & that it is more common for things to go wrong
during the procedure than dr.'s like to admit.  Both here & in the Hite
report (for men) the men who have been circumcized as adults have felt a
diminishment in sexual sensation.  I regret having had my son circumcized.
The pediatrician said it wouldn't be that painful & that babies cry no
more than when a breast is taken away. But my baby was clearly in agony 
& continued to scream long after the cutting was done.  The dr.
dismissed my question as to whether it would have any effect on sexual
enjoyment.

----------

By all means, if you don't want to do it, DON'T!! In my experience,
the rate is about 50/50, so your son is unlikely to be teased. Neither of
my boys (now 2.5yrs and 6 mos.) are circumcized, and the boys their ages
that I run into here in Berkeley are about half circumcized and half not.
If you deliver at Alta Bates, they don't do it- you have to arrange with
a pediatrician. With the first, no one ever asked. With the second, the
doc did (I was surprised), but then it was a Kaiser doc, so maybe their
practices are different. In any event, if you want physical reasons,
I've got literature on it. If you want testimonials, I might be able to 
get some from folks I know, but then there are probably plenty of dads on
this line that could give you that!

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My 19 month old son is not circumcized.  Obviously, I cannot yet speak
from experience about what sort of reactions he will get in school, since 
he and his toddler cronies don't even pee in potties yet.  However, what I 
can say is that, in the process of researching the decision, and in the year 
and a half since, I've come to believe that many people these days are
choosing not to circumcize, so my son is likely to be part of a first
gerneration in which some classmates are, some aren't, so no one stands 
out as mockably different.

March 2001 Discussion

Having said that, I wont go as far as to say I regret it but I certainly have had second thoughts. I think just about the only arguable defense (which came into play in our situation) is the "baby-like-daddy" argument. I have no complaints about the results worked out for me (not that *I* had a choice), but hey - how would I know anyway? I have nothing to compare it to.

I think at this point, there is almost no evidence that would give credence to the usual medical arguments for doing it.

There was an interesting guest on "Fresh Air" (on NPR) who wrote a book about circumcision. His name was David Gollaher and his book is called "A History of the World’s Most Controversial Surgery." It may be worth checking out, though based on his discussion on the air, I doubt you will proceed with the procedure if you read it, so be prepared. You can also hear his interview at freshair.npr.org. The interview was February 14th. (and, yes HE was circumcised too). Peter

He concluded by observing that the tide seemed to be running ever more strongly against circumcision, and that he thought that the generation of doctors now emerging from med school would be unlikely to recommend it.

(Actually, the interview concluded with the telling of two or three circumcision jokes, if you can imagine such a thing. I'll recount one here: a dry goods salesman, on his last day before retirement, was complaining to the buyer from Bloomingdale's that he had never been able to make a single sale to the store. "Please give me just one order," he begged, "so that I can retire fulfilled." "OK," said the buyer. "Send me enough satin ribbon to reach from the tip of your nose to the tip of your penis." The next day a truck rolled up to Bloomingdales and began to unload what turned out to be 8,000 miles of ribbon. The enraged buyer shouted over the phone to the salesman "What are you doing! I told you to send me as much ribbon as would reach from the tip of your nose to the tip of your penis!" "Well," said the salesman, "the tip of my nose is right here--and the tip of my penis is in Krakow!") Steven

I agree with others who have posted on this topic that my son seemed like he was in pain during the procedure--he screamed, he turned purple, he had a hard time settling down after it was over. I'm not entirely sure this was from pain, however. (The doctor did use a local anesthetic.) I think the trauma was as much from being naked, being strapped down, and having a shot (for pain killer) in the genital area. Since then, I have seen him get just as upset when he is a) hungry; b) trying to fall asleep and being overstimulated by his older sister; and c) having his diaper changed.

That said, I am still ambivalent about having done this. I think this is a very personal decision and one that merits much thought and consideration. I just don't want people to assume that because a newborn is screaming he's in terrible pain.

You'll get a lot of response about this, I reckon; I'll provide an argument that I don't hear repeated often. Removal of the foreskin desensitizes the penis. Because the sensitive glans (head) is constantly brushing up against clothing, etc, it becomes more callused and less responsive. (That foreskin has a function!) It's certainly hard to think of your as-yet-unborn child as a sexual being, but he will be someday...and you should think hard about the effect of this decision on his future sexual pleasure.

Here's the link to the AAP's official position: http://www.aap.org/advocacy/archives/marcircum.htm

If you do decide to circumcise, please be sure that you use adequate amounts of analgesia. One thing pro- and con-circumcision people agree on is that it is an indisputably painful procedure for a newborn. Studies show that baby boys who are circumcised often show biological signs of distress immediately aftwerwards, and often are hypersensitive to pain (as in innoculations) long after the experience. Doctor friends of mine who witnessed or performed circumcision during their training report that it is a brutal procedure for a newborn, and, in their collective experience, adequate amounts of analgesia are not always used.

One of our main issues was that of pain - which our pediatrician will prevent with a lidocain block.

Hope this helps with what is certainly an important and personal decision. You will find much more information, both pro and con, on the web.

Circumcision and Cervical Cancer

I know the controversial topic of whether to have a son circumcised has been discussed frequently, and I have read the very helpful archives. However, I have been reading about a recent study showing that the partners of uncircumcised men are more likely to develop cervical cancer than the partners of circumcised men. I had previously decided not to circumcise my soon-to-be born child if it is a boy, but am not sure what to do in the face of this new study. I don't want to reopen the whole question of circumcision, since I think the discussions in the archives are very comprehensive, but I am interested in what people think of this new study. Thanks. CJ

BTW, it seems very likely that cervical cancer is somehow caused by (sexually-transmitted) infection with certain strains of the human papilloma virus, and there are new methods being adopted which check for the presence of those strains, so in the future Pap testing should be even more successful at finding pre-cancerous conditions than it is now. Kathy

Partial circumcision - re-circumcise?

My son was circumcised right after birth. It turned out that the doctor didn't cut enough skin and he has a ''partial circumcision'' which means he doesn't have all his foreskin but he has more than most circumcised boys do. Starting last summer when he was 3 he began to have a lot of trouble with infections and discomfort when washing his penis. It started with a terrible yeast infection after which the doctors told us to pull the skin up and wash better. He hated us pulling the skin up and washing better and bath time became a huge dreaded ordeal. He had more of what I thought were infections but when I took him to the doctor they said because he was partially circumcised, the skin would get stuck half way up the shaft after an erection and then get swollen and terribly painful. Once it was so bad we spent hours in the doctors office while they iced it, numbed it and tried to get the skin down. Obviously I don't want my son to live with this kind of irritation and trauma. We had decided to have him recircumcised when we asked our friends of uncircumcised boys what they did. They said they did nothing. Didn't wash it, didn't touch it. Well, we've been trying that and it's been much better. The recircumcision is put off (hopefully forever) and our son likes baths. He has only had two small episodes which is a big improvement though not perfect so I wanted to hear from other people. Is there anyone who has had experience with partial circumcision or recircumcision and what do you advise? Danielle

Redo 10-month-old's circumcision?

I have a 10month old son who was born 21/2 premature.Due to that fact we couldn't get him circumcised at the hospital before we left so had to do it a few months later.But the doctor did not do a good job.I was wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation. We are looking for a doctor who can probably do a better job and if it is possible at this age.any advice,recommendations?

Fixing Problem Circumcision

My son was circumcised when he was 3 weeks old. The foreskin subsequently re-grew and re-covered the head of his penis, apparently even to a greater extent than would be found in an uncircumcised boy. We were referred to a pediatric urologist who said he would have to be recircumcised (at around 11 months). My son has no problems urinating, or anything else related to this that I have been able to see. I am really concerned that we will be taking the risk of putting him under general anesthetic for something that is maybe not so important (?). I wonder if anyone else has experienced this problem, and if so, what you did for your son. Specifically my questions are (1) should we do this? (2) if yes, should we do it now or wait until he is older? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! You can respond to me directly if you prefer. Thanks!

Circumcision recommended for Phimosis

Our 2 year old uncirumcised son suffered an infection under his foreskin. Dr. Piser (urologist) labeled it a severe phimosis, and because he thinks it will recur, recommends circumcision as treatment. We are looking for alternative treatments. In the archives someone wrote in about using a steroid cream which softened the tissue and allowed it to retract. Any input on this subject would be helpful to us.

My main advice to you is to get a second opinion. Since the steroid cream has not been used as long in this country, not as many doctors know about it. In fact, when I later called the first doctor we spoke to and asked why he didn't prescribe it, he said he'd never heard of it! Try to find a doctor who does. The UCSF pediatric urology department had a very good staff, and Dr. Ngeyun was great to work with.

In the end, you may decide to follow the first doctor's advice. But if you get a second opinion, you will have more information to work with when you decide what to do. But I am very glad we were able to find a treatment that was non surgical. anon.

He was about eight at the time and was very upset about the thought of his penis being circumcised (he was also very embarrassed by the whole situation). The doctor reluctantly agreed to continue trying to manipulate the foreskin back into place while our son was placed under anesthesia. She was very clear, however, that she did not expect this procedure to be a success and expected to have to perform a circumcision at that time.

It was a very anxious time as we waited. Afterwards, we were so glad that we had followed our intuition and our son's desire to remain uncircumcised. The procedure was a success and he never had another problem with phimosis. He is now 14. anon

Explaining circumcision to uncircumcised siblings

Does anyone have words of advice on what to tell both circumcised and uncircumcised siblings when they start comparing anatomy? (Their father is circumcised.) The plan was not to circumcise either child, but the oldest child (now two) had a circumcision to correct a hypospadias. How detailed an explanation should they be given when they are little? How does one help the older son feel comfortable with his body given the scars on the bottom of his penis? Is there any reason to believe he will feel self-conscious about himself at all? I have checked the archives but don't find any specific reference to this issue. Thanks for any and all advice.