Safe To Ignore Grandparents Re: Circumcision?

My wife is due to give birth to a son. She is technically Jewish, but has really been an atheist like I am ever since we met. Neither one of us wants to circumcise our baby, because we think it is wrong to put our baby through a religious ceremony when neither of us IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT believe there is a god or that religion is useful. Her parents have some different feelings about this and her dad especially is acting like he will die of heartbreak and be the shame of his family if his grandson doesn't have a proper bris. So, do we just ignore these worries of her parents? Once the baby is in their arms are they going to just go gaga and forget all about how they thought they would feel? Or is this going to cause very long term feelings of guilt and regret? I'm very interested to hear stories from other Jews who made the same decision in the face of a heaping pile of guilt and what the effect was on the long term parental relationships. A. Johnson

You can have a bris without the snipping, though. Especially in this area, you can find a progressive mohel who can ''go through the motions,'' while you and your family have a great big party with your 8 day old son. They can probably even do it without mentioning god, call it a ''Naming Ceremony'' or something. That way your Father in Law won't be the shame of his family but you don't have to subject your child to something you don't agree with. Everybody loves a party, right?

You're right, though, and my parents are crazy in love with both of their unsnipped grandsons (even if my mother actually refers to them as such). There has been no long term damage done to any of our relationships. Mazel Tov! Jill

Personally I think circumcision is a good thing, so on the birth of our son (our 1st child) there was no question this was the way to go. I read a lot about different techniques etc. and was really against the traditional at home bris, mainly for sanitary reasons. However my husband REALLY wanted this, and his family even more so. So we tried to set it up. However we found that most Mohel's won't do the full ceremony unless both parents are Jewish. In the end we had Dr. Berberich of the Berkeley Pediatric Medical Group http://www.pedmedgroup.com who is also a Mohel, do it at his office on the 8th day. This seemed to satisfy the Jewish need somewhat and my needs, although I won't say that my husband family have totally forgotten it didn't happen, at least now they don't mention it. This may be a good middle ground for you.

To my mind there is another big issue to a bris, especially if it's your 1st child. There I was just given birth to this wonderful, beautiful boy and all they wanted to talk about was where to have this big party. I mean seriously, your tired, over whelmed with emotion, and trying to look after something that screams at you every 2 hours or so, not to mention that after a circumcision you and the child will not be in the best of sorts. The LAST thing you as a family will want to do it sit at a party for hours, having to be nice to people, who are most likely getting drunk. I would also add that while I'm pro-circumcision, watching your child go through this has to be one of the worst and most traumatic things I've ever had to do. And my husband agrees on this point, he couldn't even watch. Becky

You don't have to be a God-believer to be Jewish. Many Jews don't believe in God. For the Jewish world your wife isn't "technically Jewish" she just Jewish. This is probably what her parents think too.

The bris is the ceremony by which the baby enters into Jewish community. Not performing the act that acknowledges the baby's identity as a Jew may be what is distressing your father-in- law.

This is unlikely to end when they see the baby. In fact in cases that I have seen, it intensifies as time passes. The anxiety and grief can grow, spoken or unspoken. It is not something you can explain away. For a person who sees themselves as a Jew it is "breaking the chain" of generations.

I'd be happy to talk with you about how you might want to shape your conversation with your in-laws. It won't cost you anything to give it a try. I'm also happy to talk to your in-laws. They need some support and guidance around how to deal with their pain. No doubt they love you both and are looking forward to being grandparents.

I'm transitioning between offices so you can email me if you like at dawn@BuildingJewishBridges.org Dawn

For the record, we are involved in the Jewish community and are temple members. While most of the members' boys are circumcised, there are a handful who are not (HOORAY!), and I know LOTS of Jewish and part-Jewish families outside of shul who are uncut. So your little guy and his Jewish foreskin will NOT be alone! In favor of Jewish foreskin

None of this argues for caving in to really manipulative relatives -- they'll never stop after winning one issue.

What we did was frame it that we were leaving it for the grandson to decide (and grandma does say, from time to time, that maybe he'll decide to get circumcised...

Next, we never left him with them when he'd need to have a diaper changed and never left him naked in front of them (this may not be practical in all situations).

And, we did other things, like teaching him by three to ask the Passover questions in Hebrew (google it - they have it sounded out) to give them something else to focus on. Getting books about Jewish holidays, so he was knowledgable, etc. goyisha mama

I would recommend though, not to approach this issue by stating you are ignoring the grandparents opinion, but by explaining how you respect their opinion, understand their pain, but choose to act otherwise because of your own beliefs. When you state that you are respecting them, you can ask for the same respect. They might not give it back, but then it's their choice. And as for the practicality of the issue - no one in the extended family has to know about this. Usually, if people don't talk about this, it does not come up. There is really no place to feel shame, because probably no one in the grandparents' circle will know about this - when will the have an opportunity to carefully check your son's penis anyways? The bottom line is that the grandparents need to grow up into their role as observers and not decision makers, as tough as it may be. Hope you don't circumcise, Jewish mom

Will our Jewish child be teased if we don't circumcise?

Hello all, My husband and I are in a real bind. I am Jewish caucasian and he is Korean-American and of Catholic origin (but not practicing). We had a Jewish wedding and enjoy sharing many Jewish rituals and holidays together. Our trouble now is that we cannot agree on whether to circumcize our son or not. In truth, I am myself not in agreement with the practice, but feel strongly about a) giving my son a range of options in terms of his own spiritual choices later on by starting him off in life as circumcized, and b) providing him with a strong sense of Jewish physical identity when he is around other Jews in his community - he will already look physically different from most Jewish kids, and I don't want him to be constantly teased about not being circumcized. My husband feels that we should not be engaging in a practice out of pressure to conform, just to avoid teasing. I'm really wondering if anyone has experience with older Jewsih kids, teens, or young adults who were not circumcized. Here in the Bay Area, might it be less common to be uncircumcized? Should we be basing our decision on the fear of being ostracized, even if we don't believe in the practice? Thanks for your thoughts, Esther

As far as pressure to conform, I agree with your husband on this one, but even more so since it's not about conforming to fashion trends or changeable things, but about something that is essentially a permanent choice.

As far as giving him choices (which you brought up), if you leave him intact, he can later make the choice to chop, but he gets no choice if you chop at birth.

Being teased about his penis seems REALLY unlikely to me, unless I'm way out of touch with society these days. In what day-to-day experiences will he be showing his genitals to others?? Is this something schoolboys do?

I have noticed that beliefs around circumcision are a lot different these days than when we were babies. People seem much more open to either way, where previously there was a predominance to circumcise. I am guessing that when he reaches sexual maturity, there will not be a stigma associated with having an intact penis, and there may be just as many boys intact as there are boys circumcised. I am guessing him being ostracized is an imagined fear.

It is always possible to circumcise later, should he want this. I know someone who was circumcised at age 19. I don't think it's possible to get the skin back, however, if cut at birth. I don't think you should base the decision on peer pressure or teasing. It's too personal of a choice to let those things influence it. You have to make the decision based on what you feel is right (whichever way that is). Your strong feelings of Jewish physical identity will of course influence this, although I know that you are Jewish if your mother is, therefore he will already have the proper lineage stuff, regardless that he is bi-racial. anon

My son is now six, by the way, and came to me just the other day saying that I had forgotten to have his penis cut off when he was a baby. We talked about the foreskin and why some boys have it cut off and some don't (his non-Jewish dad and all his Jewish male cousins are circumcised, so he knows the difference), and he seemed perfectly content to be intact. I don't know long-term how he'll deal, but my dad's story about Moses has helped me out of more than one conversation with others in my family!

May your son be healthy and bring many blessings to you and your family. Happy Mom of Happy Son

The one idea I had about your question, though, was if your son grows up in a more Jewish culture than my sons did, and falls in love with a religious Jew. As it happened, my oldest son went away to college in a more conservative state, and fell in love with a very orthodox Jewish girl. I liked her a lot and thought their relationship was a good one. They were together for 3 years. She told him from the start that he would have to convert to Judaism if their relationship was to get more serious (because I, the mom, am not Jewish so therefore he isn't either). He ended up making the decision that conversion was something he was not willing to do. If he hadn't been circumcised, I have no doubt this would also have been a condition for his girlfriend. And knowing my son, I'm sure this would have been a deal-breaker. In my experience, teens and young men are not exactly wildly enthusaistic about the idea of adult circumcision. So, it's just something to think about. I never had any expectation that my sons would marry Jews -- it's fine if they do and fine if they don't. But if you do have this desire for your son, then it might be worth it to think about what happens when he's in his 20's and in love with a young woman like my son's girlfriend. Not a Jewish Mother

I've researched this passage as a grad student in Jewish Studies and presented two papers at national conferences on it. The sources debate who it was that gets circumcized, even considering that ''her son'' refers to Moses himself (rather than the recently born Eliezer, although since Egyptian royalty was circumcized this is unlikely) and there are a number of different explanations offered as to why the circumcision wasn't done in the first place (have time for a few stories?). I don't recall ever seeing anything about an ''animal foreskin'' being a ''substitute''. I welcome a reference to such an interpretation, but it sounds to me like either the poster or her father are confusing the substitution of a ram in the story of the binding of Isaac with this story. It's pretty clear that _someone_ isn't circumcised, that God threatens Moses' life because of it, and that God is appeased by the blood of the circumcison.

This is all a digression from the original question, but I wanted to point it out because I see a number of claims about Judaism, ''historical circumcision'', and the like from the no-circ folks that are either not accurate, or theories that are passed off as fact.

There are many liberal Jews in this area who have chosen not to circumcise. There are many Russian Jews and some European Jews who aren't circumcised. Kids don't have the same hang-ups around the issue as we grown-ups do. We circumcised our sons because it had meaning for us, and we made a commitment to make it meaningful for our sons. If it is not meaningful to you, if you can't make the commitment to have it be meaningful to your son, then don't. My sons know they are circumcised because they are Jewish. They know that some Jewish boys aren't in the same way that many of the Jews we know (including their grandparents) don't keep Kosher (we do). They also know that some non-Jewish boys are circumsized because there are _some_ parents and _some_ doctors who _believe_ is is healthier.

Recovering ABD

Strong pressure from my mother to circumcize our son

Hello to all! I am a soon-to-be mother of a boy who was raised in a Jewish home, attended a conservative congregation growing up, had a bat mitzvah, but in general my family is not very religious. As an adult, I only practice Judaism on the major holidays, and mostly attend services at Jewish renewal congregations, but am not a member anywhere. My husband is not Jewish, yet does not practice any other form of organized religion. We both consider ourselves spiritual people, and pull from many different spiritual traditions in our lives to add meaning and tradition. We would like to expose our son to his Jewish heritage, as well as other forms of spirituality. The issue of circumcision has been a major one for me for the past several months, since I found out the child I am carrying is a boy. I have several friends (non-jews) who had boys and did not circumcise them, and I am very aware of the medical arguments for and against circumcision. I think that if I didn't have any pressure either way, I'd probably decide not to circumcise my son, because I don't think I could put him through that for the sole reason that he is Jewish. However, what I didn't prepare for is the strong pressure I am getting from my mother, who will not stop telling me that it is very important to her that we have our son circumcised. She doesn't even care if we have a bris, she just wants us to get him circumcised, because if we don't, he would be the only male in the family who is not. I guess what I need is some advice from other Jewish parents who decided not to circumcise their sons, if they had ''alternative'' ceremonies in leui of a normal bris, and how they may have dealt with family pressures and general comments about their decisions. I'm having a hard time even imagining how to tell my mother/family if I decide not to circumcise my son, even though that is where I am leaning right now. Any advice is greatly appreciated!! Jewish Mom-to-be

On the bigger issue of family pressure about parenting decisions... we definitely get it from both sides, about various issues (my parents don't understand that we don't want our son to have EVERY toy in the world, my husband's mom thinks I'm doing my toddler a disservice by still breastfeeding). We are just firm - this is what we want to do, and thanks for the advice but we're doing it differently. Jen

I did ask a rabbi (Reconstructionist) about it later and she said of course males can be Jewish even if uncircumcised. It has been helpful to have that information sometimes in responding to comments. As far as the family stuff, it was hard, but when we decided the same thing about our second son the naysayers didn't bother us. And all the relatives love the boys.

Good luck with your decision.
been there, more or less

I decided ahead of time to arrange to have a baby naming ceremony, in our home, on the eighth day after the birth. I was in grad school at the time (not in the Bay Area), and not a member of a temple, but I got the name of a rabbi who was accostomed to dealing with interfaith couples. He came to the house, did a nice ceremony with a few friends and my parents, and gave us a beautiful certificate with our son's Hebrew name. My parents made a donation to his temple, and all were happy.

My parents ended up being very happy with the naming ceremony (and they got their ''bris-fix'' with my sister's two boys in the last three years), and frankly I think they were surprised that there could be a religious ceremony without the bris -- with three daughters, they'd never had a naming ceremony for any of us.

My advice is, do what feels right for you. Five years later, my parents havn't mentioned anything to me about it since, and my son is so far unaware that he is the only known uncircumcised member of my family for generations. Tara

Essentially, the decision is yours and your husband's. When you change your son's diaper, will you be feeling guilty when you are reminded of his circumcision or will you be happily reaffirming your decision not to circumcize? And as for your mother's saying that he will be the only one in the family left intact, well, someone's got to be first, right?

This is probably only the first of many issues where your parents' views will be different from yours and you will have to make a decision and stick to it. Good luck in your resolve. anon

So, we have raised our son with Judiasm, but without circumcsion. We did have a beautiful bris, he attended the Jewish Community Center preschool and Camp Kee Tov in the summer. He is now participating in a weekly religious/Hebrew school class. He is well rooted in his Jewishness and has not yet figured out that his penis looks any different than many of his friends or his father's. When and if he does ask, I will feel comfortable explaining our reasons for our decision.

My only lingering concern is if he someday has a Jewish sexual partner for whom circumcision is important. My hope is that more and more Jewish families will opt to leave their sons intact and there will be a normalizing effect. s

What amazed us was the huge fits thrown by both our mothers, who even objected to the fact that we posted a picture of our diaperless baby on our website, revealing his uncircumcised penis to the world (a friend who is anti-circ congratulated us for making an anti-circ ''statement'' by posting the picture -- we'd just thought it was a cute photo.) Even our pediatrician, a Jew, got into the act, demanding to know what would happen if our son decided he wanted to be a rabbi. A close friend, who, as a doctor, counsels her patients that she sees circumcision as elective surgery with all the attendant risks, ended up circumcising her own son because of the pressure that came from both sets of Jewish grandparents, none of whom even make it to temple on High Holidays. She cried all the way through the bris. So the pressure you're getting sounds pretty typical.

All I can tell you is, as unhappy as both grandmothers were at the time, it blew over pretty fast, and by the time they held my son in their arms for the first time, the state of his penis was pretty far from their minds. I've picked and chosen among every other aspect of Judaism, so I feel fine about having charted my own course on this one. And my son (now 5)has never once asked why his penis looks different from his dad's. I encourage you to make the choice that feels right to you -- this won't be the first time that your mom expresses disappointment or disapproval over some parenting choice you make, believe me. But in the end, you're the mom, and if you're doubtful about whether you made the right choice, you'll enjoy the bris about as much as my doctor friend did. A Jew Who Didn't Circumcise

It was also amazing for us to articulate, first to each other, and then to those close to us, our principles and ideology of being parents and raising people in this world. It was a very short but, if I may say so myself, a beautiful and very touching ceremony (that also seemed to be the opinion of those who attended). But most importantly it was a way for us to retain what we felt was valuable in our tradition (the idea of a special covenant between a newborn and his world) while infusing it with content that reflected our own values and was unique to who we are.

It also made the bitter pill of caving into the circumcision easier to swallow.

Much joy and happiness to you. ben

Before we decided I spoke with the rabbi at Temple Sinai in Oakland and asked whether or not our son would be considered jewish if he was uncircumsized. The rabbi told me that while he would be Jewish, he would not be able to be buried in a Jewish cememtary because he would not have been consecrated to God. I decided I could live with that. There's obviously more to it than that in terms of the religious aspects and you may need to pursue that in a deeper way to figure out how much it means to you.

And then there's the whole family side of the decision. It came as a complete surprise to me who in my family had a hard time with it. I grew up in a pretty atheistic and non-practicing family, from grandparents on down. We celebrated Passover and Channukah with very little religious context. Only my younger cousins had bar/bat mitzvahs. It made it easier that my mom was supportive (and continues to send me articles supporting the decision). And the relatives who were critical, I listened to and since then we've never talked about it (my dad & grandparents). I do feel a bit awkward when my son prances around naked when they're around, but I figure it's their issue and not mine now. over the regrets

My advice - if you don't want to circumcise - don't. Your parents will get used to the idea & will soon move on to giving you their other (unwanted?) parenting advice. Good luck and congratulations. anon

The Circumcision Debate: For centuries Brit Milah, ritual circumcision had been the ultimate affirmation of Jewish identity, but recently a growing number of Jews are leaving their sons uncircumcised. As part of this on-going dialogue we are presenting two workshops exploring the arguments for and against circumcision.

Tuesday, June 1, 2004 7:30 Circumcision: The Covenant of Brit Milah Join Rabbi/ Mohel Chanan Feld and Rabbi Yehuda Ferris for an exploration of the covenant, tradition and medical relevance of circumcision as a powerful and enduring Jewish life cycle event.

Wednesday, June 9,7:30 Circumcision? Questions, Concerns and Alternatives Growing number of Jews view circumcision as a part of Jewish law that they can no longer accept. Join Rabbi Kai Eckstein and Dr. Mark Reiss for an informative discussion focusing on questions about ritual circumcision and an alternative naming ceremony Brit Shalom - designed to bring baby boys into the covenant.

BRJCC
1414 Walnut ST
Berkeley,CA
For information call: 
(510) 848-0237x112or www.brjcc.org 

I have never agonized over anything in my life so much as this choice. (Of course, it didn't help to be postpartum and suffering crazy hormone swings...) Before my son was born, I had decided to circumcise him. I am Jewish; my husband is not; my Jewishness pretty much consists of celebrating Passover every year, and I wanted very much to link my son with his Jewish history, and have his birth be the beginning of being more connected myself.

And then he was born. And I began to doubt. I called everyone I knew, and a whole lot of people I didn't, and talked it over for hours. I cried and cried and cried. My choice changed every day. The party was planned, our friends were invited, the rabbi was scheduled. Exactly twelve hours before the rabbi would've come (the last time I could reach him) I called him off, holding my breath to keep from crying on the phone. My husband stayed up all night and wrote the most beautiful ritual I had ever seen, incorporating all the things that I'd wanted to get from the circumcision -- connection to family and Jewish history, welcoming into the community, making pledges to each other, giving him a Hebrew name -- and in the morning we performed it with all our friends, who had bravely gathered not knowing whether they were attending a bris or a non-bris. It was one of the happiest days of my life and I have never once regretted our choice after that night-before. (My son is now three and a half.)

You will have to make your own choice, and I am behind you completely either way. If you happen to choose the same way we did, and would like to know more about the ceremony we did, I'd be happy to share it with you. (Our midwife took a copy and I believe makes it available to clients of hers who are struggling with the same difficult choice -- see, you are not alone!) alyson

Interfaith family struggling with the circumcision issue

Are there Jewish and/or interfaith couples out there who have struggled with the circumcision issue? We would be interested in hearing about your decision making process. Were you initially opposed to the idea, but ended up doing it? What factors particuarly influenced your decision? Did you decide not to circumcise your Jewish son? If so, did you encounter resistance from your family and/or religious community? Please do not send general arguments either against or for circumcision for Jews, as we have studied and thought about the issue extensively. We have also read the website postings, and at this point are most interested in hearing from other Jewish families who have had a difficult time with this major decision. Anon.

My husband is circumcised but did not feel that his son should necessarily be circumcised. In fact, he started out feeling very strongly that we should not circumcise. I, being Jewish, and knowing that my parents would be probably be devestated if we didn't have our son circumcised, was very torn. I felt that I needed other reasons to feel that it was a justifiable procedure.

We started out emailing each other articles (with snide comments prefacing them!) at work. I was sending pro-circumcision articles and he was sending con. This went on for a while and then we started to have more emotional conversations about it. He had been to a couple brit milah's for my nephews and didn't enjoy the experience, to say the least. I was having feelings of guilt, obligation etc. We ended up deciding to have the circumcision in the hospital and then having a symbolic bris/baby naming at a later time. As I mentioned before, we had a girl.

3 months ago we had our second child, a son. Without much discussion this time, we had our son circumcised in the hospital when he was a day old. I've had lots of feelings around it and would be happy to share them with you if you're interested. Please let me know. It's certainly a very difficult decision and also a very permanent one. I'm still very torn but honestly think that we would probably make the same decision again.

Best of luck. Nancy

After all our learning it felt to us that the practice was archaic. Even our Rabbi agreed that our son could have a covenant with god in other ways.

I was surprised at many people's reaction. Only one family member, who is actively Jewish gave us any slack. She just believed strongly that we must do the bris.

The others who gave us a hard time were not even actively Jewish, They sometimes do a little something for the holidays, but have little commitment. We pretty much pushed the comments aside by stating we did what our pediatrician, Rabbi and ourselves believe is right. Eventually they gave up.

We were concerned about the issue of looking different ''down there'' but found many of our friends sons and even our closet young cousin are not circumcised.

This is a tough decision. I hope you are able to discover what you think is right and to go with it.

Best to you in your decision. Wendy

The most compelling arguments against, for me, are:

* I don't have much respect for tradition for tradition's sake. I'd rather be among those to stop an unhealthy or ill-advised tradition.
* It is not a trivial piece of skin you are removing, but a sheath that covers the entire penis, which for an adult male is a significant piece of skin, full of nerve endings and an integral part of the sex organ. I have been surprised to find that people who have circumcised their own sons have been unaware of what exactly they're removing when they circumcise-- which fuels my concern that a tradition is being perpetuated with a kind of thoughtlessness perhaps only possible because it's such a personal or embarrassing or taboo topic
* It's not important to us that the boy's penis resemble his father's (I don't get this argument at all)
* It seems to me more and more parents are choosing not to circumcise, so being different from one's peers won't be a big issue for boys born now, if it ever was. I haven't encountered or read about anyone who says as an older boy or teen or adult he had a hard time because he wasn't circumcised and thus different from his peers--why are people so concerned about this? I do think about my son going someday to a predominantly Jewish summer camp or something, and maybe being aware of being different, but is this a reason to remove an integral part of his sex organ?
* It seems that much sexual pleasure is derived from the function of the foreskin
* It seems like a traumatic and painful thing to put a newborn through
* There are risks involved in doing the circumcision; some do get botched, with horrific and life-altering results
* My son can make a choice to be circumcised later if he wants, but could never choose to have his foreskin back if circumcised

I'll be very interested to see what others say. I have also been curious about other Jews choosing not to circumcise. Thanks for bringing this up. Anon.

We were greatly relieved when our first child turned out to be a girl and we could let it rest. Our second (almost two now) is not. My husband was always against circumcision: he felt it to be barbaric and unnecessary. I think it helped that he'd been around when his brother made the decision some years earlier not to circumcise his son (this helped the family, his side at least, be accepting, if not approving). I was much more ambivalent, agreeing, basically, that it seemed unnecessary, but also having some lingering sense that circumcison was the correct Jewish way to go. It was also the norm for me: all the penises I'd ever met had been snipped and that's how I expected him to be. In the end, we decided not to. For me, I finally came around, because it seemed the forward-looking, more humane way to go. Now, by the way, it seems like much less of a big deal. Keep in mind that either way is just fine for your son. Good luck! Eve

What I initially felt was that if we didn't do it, our son would be the only uncircumcised little Jewish boy out there, but I didn't want my perception of isolation or differece to be the motivationg factor in my descision. But now I think that there are many of us, we just don't know each other. Let me say that I'm a fairly secular Jew and I don't belong to a temple. Fortunately, my family easily accepted our decision, but I definitely brought it up before he was born so we could talk about it.

My opinion is that all traditions are changing and growing, even this one. I think it is important to question one's culture and traditions and not just blindly follow along. We actively debate every other aspect of Judaism, so why is this etched in stone? I'm proud of our descision and know it was right for us. I have yet to encounter anything negative from anyone, and if I do, I'll find another group of Jews to hang out with.

a Jewish mom with a Jewish son

That said, if we had felt that medical arguments against circumcision were stronger - and some interpret evidence differently - we wouldn't have done it.

Lastly, I would also recommend that those who do choose to circumcise consider Chanan Feld! He did our older boy, but our younger one was circumcised in the hospital with us present over a week after birth it was a far lengthier procedure, and definitely much more unpleasant! Dan