Divorce - is it worth it?

I'm desperate for comments and advice: I'm married, with a 3 year old son. It's a very unhappy marriage, and has been unhappy for at least 8 years, been together 19 years total. We've been to counseling a couple times, neither lasted - my husband is very unenthusiastic and thinks it ''doesnt work'' and is a waste of time. I held out hope for sooo long, and of course still had (naive) hope when our son was conceived ... but things went from bad to worse during my pregnancy, and continued to worsen for the past 3 years. We seem to have a kind of detente day to day, but there is almost no love and affection. I've been desperate to avoid divorce and hurting our little one, and my husband feels the same, I know. We both adore our child. But we are really unhappy. I am so scared of divorce - the pain it will cause my child, the economic hardship, not having a partner to share the load. etc. I am scared and know nothing. No one in our families is divorced.

I need advice from divorced moms - is it worth it? Are you happier post-divorce? can you really date again (I'm 45)? or is it better to stay and just be lonely? I cant decide what to do, but am leaning to divorce now. I am so, so lonely, behind a facade of social stuff, etc. Is amicable divorce possible? I'd do anything to keep life sweet for my baby, and I think my husband will try too ... once he's free of the person he so despises, maybe he will be able to be nice to me again. (He's endlessly angry at me, a huge name caller, and just cold and disgusted with me 95% of the time usually). I am open to any comments at all. Thank you. S.

Good luck to you!!!!!!! Take the first step and do something good for you, you deserve it and so does your child. survived divorce

The hard part next. Does your husband do anything right? Does he bring home a good salary, does he do a great job putting your child to bed, does he do fixit stuff around the house? Find something you appreciate and start smiling and complimenting him. I know it is hard when negative feelings abound, but this is the place to start to turn things around.

If you are lonely, spend more time with your girlfriends or develop more friendships. Or ask you husband to consider an open marriage. Divorce is not the only option.

If he refuses to work, is financially irresponsible, or is destroying himself with drugs or alcohol, then divorce may be the only answer. I sincerely believe that most other problems can be solved in a reasonable amount of time. anon

Don't get me wrong, divorce is hard. There were some really tough times in there and I still struggle with the guilt and the blame at times. But my fear that I would wake up one morning and think, ''Oh my god what have I done!'' never materialized. I believe my kids are better off now with a happy mama in an environment of love and respect instead of constant fighting, resentment and misery. Trust your instinct and don't settle for anything less for yourself or your child. Life is too short to be miserable

Being a single mom is super hard in all the ways you have mentioned. You can definetely date again: i'm in a nice relationship now. But it's hard: it's not the father of your child. However, all those difficulties are a million times better than being with a person that treats you like you are worth nothing. After your divorce, until both of you find a new way of relating, things will be tough. But I know you will find your strength, when you see what you can do on your own, to 'teach' your husband not to treat you poorly. I managed to do that and I'm sure things are much better for my son now that they would have been if I had stayed in that awfully lonely, painful and diminishing marriage. Plus, you have your family that can give you support: that's worth a lot. I wish you and your child the very, very best. I know you can do it. Patricia

Please, for the sake of the kids, try try try to do anything you can to stay together. It sounds like there is more that can be done here. Does your husband understand how much he is upsetting you by his behavior? Have him chat with some divorced friends and remind him how hard life will be for all parties. I think if you found the right counselor (get a man) you could make it work...If you want to chat directly ask the moderator for my contact info. anon

I can only imagine that divorce is a scary prospect, but it's one you can overcome as many people have in much worse situations, like my mother-in-law. Getting a divorce is also your chance to obtain happiness for you and your child. Life is too short to be miserable and the initial hardship of divorce seems like a small price to pay. You deserve to be happy and you are stronger than you think. You are worth it!! Best Wishes

Considering divorce but worried about finances

I am considering getting a divorce after only 2 years. My issue is that I haven't worked for 3 years because I have been in grad school full time and have 1 more year to go. Basically, if I went through with the divorce, I'd have the kid (who's mine from a previous relationship), no job, no car, and no housing. Is it okay to ask for some sort of alimony since I haven't got any real financial income other than financial aid? What's an appropriate amount? If I were to try and rent a place, do landlords deem income such as fin. aid as acceptable income? I am in the process of looking for a job, but I just changed careers so I haven't got much background. Anyone know of lawyers who offer free divorce advice? anon

Stuck with Deadbeat Husband Who is a Decent Father

I would of course, have thown him out long go, except for the fact that my son loves him deeply and my daughter as well, although she is more realitistic about matters, and if he is nothing else, he is a devoted father, somewhat. Particularly during the school year, he goes on field trips with our children, is home when they get here,does love them greatly, drives them to school.

I, on the other hand, would like to rent his room out. He is a ball and chain around my neck. We don't have intimacies any longer. He does not beat me, which is important. It is dificult for me to make my son behave, without his father's influence. He minds his father perfectly and me, barely. Both my children are just going into their teen age years.

Should I grin and bear it? I am the sole breadwinner. I am selling the home and moving to Oregon after they finish high school, in their outstanding school district, that I sacrificed everything to get them into.

I have stopped giving him money. He has stolen money and my car many times. Refuses to work. Sleeps until 4 pm. Alas.......it is exacerbated during the summer because I am here with him all day. Maybe the solution is spiritual.... I Will Count It All Joy

I was in a horrible marriage for 23 years. During ten of those years I supported the ex while he finished his Ph.D. and finally got a job. Of course he was laid off after five years, and blamed it on me. I was too afraid to divorce him, but got close to it. He finally started working again, and I paid for him to go to therapy. He filed for divorce -- probably blamed his depression on me.

Here's the surprise: the kids (three -- teenagers and pre- teen) all did OK. They were sad of course, but glad the tension was gone. I am fine -- the fear of the divorce was actually much worse as was the indecision.

Since by the time the X filed, I had put my career on the back-burner -- I was really afraid of poverty. But turned out I was OK. My spousal support is only $300 per month -- it's really hard to get much these days. And child support is modest.

And I stopped worrying about fixing X or when he did stupid crazy irresponsible things.

So many of us have been there. Now that I'm out I can't remember why I staid so long. Don't wait forever. OK now

The second point is either you need to go into therapy or into family therapy with your kids. If your son won't acccept discipline from you and he won't listen to your suggestions, it sounds like your son is standing with his father against you. That situation could improve if your husband was in his own apartment. Leaving things the status quo doesn't sound like an option. As one poster suggested, there is a way two people could live together without really feeling that connected. But the hostility in your family is hurting you and your kids. So seek legal advice and therapy and do something before things further disintegrate. Your kids deserve more. Anonymous

I'm so unhappy and lonely - should we just divorce?

I am so desperately lonely and unhappy in my marriage and yet, with two children, a steep mortgage and 10 yrs together, I don't want to call it quits. My husband and I have been in marital trouble for 1.5 yrs. We've been seeing a counselor since January and while it seems to be addressing the micro-level stuff (little fights, minor irritations) the macro-level stuff is unchanged. We live and co-parent like roommates; divvying up responsibilities, providing opportunities for each to get some free time alone or with personal friends, but there is no RELATIONSHIP. He has his friends/life (centered on work). I have my friends. Mostly we just sit across from each other at the kitchen table and read our email or surf the web. I HATE my marriage and long for the days when we really wanted to spend time together, look out for one another. Is there hope? Or should I just file for divorce and move on? Can couples come back from this? sad and lonely

Being a single, divorced mom is much more difficult, financially and emotionally than you may realize. In addition, the grass isn't greener on the other side. There are no perfect marriages and each one of us have challenges and obstacles to overcome with our mates. If you found yourself in a new relationship after divorce, there will be challenges to overcome in that relationship too. With your husband, at least you know him well, trust him and know what to expect from him.

I suggest getting off the computer and use that time to do something at home that engages you together - talking, board games, etc. As hard as it may seem, begin treating him (if you already have not started) as you want him to treat you w/o the expectation he will change. Many times I have found that this prompts the other person to mimic my behavior and treat me differently.

God intended us to remain married. Review your vows of marriage and take each one you said seriously. You can improve the relationship you have and I suggest prayer when you feel overwhelmed. God will answer your prayers and the time you put into your marriage will bring you closer, make a stronger foundation and give you children a safe place to fall as they navigate their way through life. Take care and God Bless. CDS

I think it's great you're both willing to go to counseling. There seems to be light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe it's over; hard to say. I think you should do counseling long term (if not this counselor, then another who can make a bigger impact on the bigger items).

If you do decide on divorce, you might try to stick together as civil friends with a shared goal (children cared for) at least until the market is better and you can financially make it happen (assuming there's no abuse). Good Luck

Can you break out of the rut you're in? For example, plan a date to go for a walk together to a nearby cafe where you can talk. Or, take the family hiking and you and your husband can talk while the kids run ahead. Kayaking or camping would be fun.

Is there some other reason you no longer want to be with your husband? If not, why go through the upheaval of a divorce when you don't want to? Married and Surfing every night

Want unfaithful husband to move out, give me the house

A year and a half ago my husband of twenty five years had an affair with a coworker. He agreed to break off all contact and go into couples counseling to save our marriage. After several months of counseling during which the issue of the affair was not resolved (he never really accepted responsibility) we stopped going due to a family emergency. I recently found out he is seeing this woman again or maybe he never really broke it off. We have a 13 year old son. I want to protect my son and my financial future (I am approaching 60 years old). I would like to ask my husband to move out and keep the house for my son and I to live in with ownership eventually going to my son. My question is how to do this as I know my husband could demand his share of the house. I am not at all sure he would do this, but I am also not sure as he is going through his own issues. I would not be able to afford to buy him out. I would appreciate advice and recommendations for lawyers. Anonymous

I divorced recently and I was the one who left home, leaving my ex-husband in the house (we share 50/50 custody of our son). After many discussions and much soul-searching, I decided it would be best for our son to let my ex continue living in the house (I was the one who supported the family financially). I rent an apartment nearby. I still own half the house, and my husband's ''rent'' for my half of the ownership is paid to me (or rather is deducted from his alimony). My ex cannot afford to buy me out, nor can I afford to buy him out.

You will need to sit down and talk to a lawyer to figure out your rights in this case, but I just thought I would give you a heads-up about your son's father's rights. It can be a blow to realize that you have to share assets and share custody, but in most cases it is a fact. I would recommend that you see a lawyer who is a mediator with your ex-husband, AFTER you get some advice from a separate lawyer. It is much, much better to resolve issues through mediation, both for you and for your son (financially and psychologically). Two good mediators in the area are Judith Joshel and Eva Herzer. good luck

Considering divorce, but ... who gets the house?

I am thinking of divorce, which as a SAHM is very daunting for a number of reasons. But my question is about our house. We have been married 3 years but were engaged for more than a year before we married. While engaged my husband bought the house we currently live in. He put about $50k down and the rest has a mortgage on it aprox $400K. It has appreciated in value by roughly $200k. He has been paying the mortgage payment since I do not have a income as a SAHM of our two kids. He says the house is his and not community property since he bought it before we were married. I feel that I must have some right to part of it since mortgage payments were made with communal income (his income is the family income, right?) since we have been married. Has any one had experience with this situation or know the answer? Any advice would be appreciated. feel broke

I can't give you legal advice, but I think, am not sure, that it depends what funds were used paying for the mortgage on the house. The initial deposit of 50k goes towards your husband if it was separate property. But then if your husband used community property funds (i.e. his income while you were married), then you would be entitled to a portion of the house.

Really see a lawyer. And don't fight your husband on the little stuff. I think a lot of lawyers end up fighting over the ''tea pot'' Don't fall into that trap. Figure out what you want for custody. You are also entitled to child support (a formula) and alimony. And half of all community property. SEE A LAWYER! PLEASE!

Finding The Courage To Divorce

I have been married for over 20 years. I have felt for at least half of that time that the marriage was a mistake and that we should divorce. We are not violent with each other but there are patterns that are very frustrating IE: arguments about housework, finances, communication etc. I am either furious or bored out of my mind by it all. I have gotten counseling around these issues but my husband is not interested in going. I threaten to leave every couple of years. He pulls himself together and is cordial for a few weeks and then the tension starts to build again. I am very unhappy in the relationship but can't ever get beyond the fear of divorce IE: sharing custody of two young kids, how to afford two separate households when we are already in debt, dividing up friends, losing his side of the family etc. It is so overwhelming that I just stop thinking about it and keep on going. Any advice out there for sorting out all the fears and becoming strong enough to go through with it? anon

There will be a lot of pressure to stay together, but in my humble opinion, you have to find the courage to do what you know is right for you. And it sounds pretty clear that you know what is right. Only you know what kind of life you want to live, and whether you are living it. This is your only chance. With that said, divorce is no fun, neither is co-parenting. But I'm sure it gets easier with time. And your kids are probably already affected by the stress in your relationship and may welcome the change, as both parents might end up being happier and more enjoyable to be around.

Divorce will cause them pain, but in the long run, it may be a better alternative than staying in a relationship that doesn't work. As far as how to sort out the fears so you can find the courage, I think posting your question is a pretty big step. You are being honest with yourself and putting the truth out there. It's hard to back away from that once it's done. Good luck. No regrets

Recently my oldest daughter (now 17) said to me out of the blue, that she thinks kids in divorced families are lucky and much better off because she has friends at school whose parents don't communicate with other or share a bedroom and use the kids to communicate and mediate their fights. Her friends are sure that their parents are waiting for them to move out and then get divorced, but actually resent them for staying together (for their sake). Her friends are very unhappy with the tension and unhealthy environment at home and wish their parents had divorced so they (the parents) could be happy and in turn let them (the kids) have a normal home life.

So what I'm saying is, go for it, your child will be much happier in the long run. You have the courage-Good Luck

Drifting apart ... find myself thinking about parting ways

I would be interested in hearing from people who ended a marriage, because they simply grew apart. At what point did you realize your distance was not going to turn itself around? My husband and I have been together almost 15 years. We have a young son. Up until about 5 years ago, we were very happy together. We would go away for the weekend, take our baby on outings, go out for dinner, and laugh and talk and watch movies all the time. In recent years, our careers have taken us in very different directions. It has been gradual, but these days I feel as though we are roommates rather than spouses. He has his friends, I have mine. We rarely go to eachother's work events. He has his hobbies and interests (which are sort of boring to me), and I have mine (which aren't his thing either). When we attempt to do things the other likes to do, it feels rather forced or obviously an effort. When we do go out for dinner together, it tends to be very silent at the table, both of us grasping for things to talk about. Usually the subject goes right back to how great our son is, and what he did today that was funny. We are nice to each other, and we love our son and our home very much, but I often feel very lonely in my own marriage. What is especially difficult is, we LIKE each other. I don't think either of us wants to hurt the other, or abandon the other. However, we are both in our 30's, and life is short. I find myself thinking about parting ways from time to time, and I feel guilty about it. Can anybody out there relate? Feeling More and More Lonely

Having said that - working with your husband to have more fun and a better time together is absolutely doable and important. I suggest taking a look at Harville Hendrix, Getting The Love You Want, A Guide for Couples. Relationships are like plants - they need nurturing pruning, attention. A lot of it with small children, is we adults are tired. So having an intention to nurture our relationship, and then a plan, and then doing some of it is really helpful. Harville's suggestions worked for me. My husband and I will be celebrating 25 years next year - and when our youngest was 3, we separated and my husband actually moved out for a period of time. So hang in there.
Relationships Are Worth Nurturing

I am desperately unhappy - should I stay or go?

My husband and I have been married 8 years previous to a brief courtship, we have two kids, 3y and 10 mo we argue frequently I find it very hard to express my feelings to him etc with out him getting ,mad or sullen or a he could say the same thing about me or somehow being persuaded that I am in the wrong, so that I feel that it is I that shld aplgise.

I'm yelled at for things I feel are unness and then he'll say some sml but disparageing remark to thin air or wrs to our boy about me(or the latest- high five our boy if he is rude to me!) now I never used to put him down to our kids but as time goes on, and I hate myself for it,I have started to do the same subtly but none the less.

Recently when we argued(kidsinbed)he said he felt like punching me in the face!Then later pointed his finger at me and made a banging noise. He never apologises for this kinda thing and has recently admitted he'ed aquired a hand gun(v. scary with a bad temper)with out consulting with-knows I disagree with guns upon me voicing my opinion I again was made to feel wrong myself.

Life is seemingly getting worse for us and though I have seen a therapist which helps but too $$,we have tried counselling,(not really found a match)and sometimes later said he wasn't serious and subsequently go back on his word on things agreed. He went to grp anger mngment but missed sessions frequently, he has also told me he knows he has issues and will seek out a therapist but if I inquire as to if he has taken any steps more than once or twice he will tell me if I continue to ask he will not go into therapy - this has been happening on and off for 2 years now I think this is an excuse. He often seeks my opinion and when I give it I am told I am not a good listener. He was brought up in a very untrusting non comunicative househld and I don't wish to bring this on our kids. I know single moms - it seems very hard but they are happy to me, I hope he would support us - I have no means of earning very much.

I am desperately unhappy and so is he I feel he would benifit from meds am I being too impatient? To picky? To nagging? All of the above? T.Y. for reading this and thinking about it for me cause I just go up and down like a yo-yo. Yo-Yo

I was in a marriage for many years that did not bring me happiness and left me feeling inadequate and unloved. My situation was different in that my spouse was not violent or disrespectful in the obvious ways that yours is, but it was similar in that one of my husband's needs was to make me feel as incompetent and powerless as possible. A therapist would help you get back some of your self-confidence so that you could reject the bad self-image your husband gives you.

I wish you luck in finding your way -- have faith in yourself and be good to yourself and your kids former yo-yo

I'd like to recommend a book, ''The Verbally Abusive Relationship.'' It helped to put a name to types of communications that were unhealthy, and gave tips for attempting to change abusive communications.

I also recommend talking to someone at a women's center who has experience and training with verbally abusive relationships. At first I would not have called my situation ''domestic violence,'' but I met with someone at a center for domestic violence who illuminated me about healthy and unhealthy/damaging patterns. I joined a support group of other women who were in verbally abusive situations, and finally I gathered the strength to leave my relationship. What was hardest was wondering if I was doing the right thing. Once I left and was on my own, my mind felt sane and clear.

I did try counseling with my husband, but it didn't help at all. I don't think he wanted to change.

I am now in a new relationship of three years -- I feel like a different person, free and open and healthy. It makes such a difference when your partner is healthy and can communicate with you without blaming or name-calling or belittling or getting anxious. I am much less angry in dealing with my children -- much more calm and loving.

This whole process wasn't easy, and your patterns may be ''fixable,'' but I am so glad I left! I hadn't realized how much of my unhappiness and ''failure to thrive'' was due to my relationship. Happy Now with Healthy Man

How lucky for you that you are not married and don't have to go through the hassle of the divorce. Please know that your marital status will NOT affect your ability to get child support from your kids' dad.

You MUST see a lawyer immediately, and I would also suggest contacting a women's shelter or abuse-support group, because if this man hears that you are thinking of leaving him, he may very well become violent. He has shown you in many, many ways that he is capable of this.

You are ''desperately unhappy'' and he is teaching your kids to disrespect you as he does. Is there anything in the world that can make this situation better for you? The answer is no. The only way to make your life better is to get away from him.

Yes, single motherhood is hard, but not as hard as what you're putting up with. I know -- I've been there.

Find friends who can help you -- turn to family -- leave the area -- do whatever you need to do to get away. Life doesn't have to be a misery.

Good Luck -- Been There, Got Out, Now Happy

Additionally, you two are setting the example for your kids of what a marriage should look like, and how a married couple should behave toward one another. Is your relationship with your husband what you would want your kids to have? Is how your husband behaves toward you the way you'd want to see your son treat his wife, when he gets married? If you have a daughter, do you want some one to treat her the way you are being treated?

Finally, putting the children in the middle of your conflict is absolutely unacceptable on both of your parts, which is what you and your husband are doing when you say bad things about one another to them.

I don't know the whole story, but from what you say, it doesn't sound as if your husband is not showing much respect for your needs, his needs, or the needs of your children. Are you? Yes, I'd say, time to go. Try to find a support network of some kind, either family, friends or a group of some kind, but get yourself and your kids out of there as soon as possible, and consult with a divorce attorney Anonymous

My advice: Do not stay with this man!

There is an excellent book called ''The Gift of Fear'' by Gavin de Becker. It talks about *how* to leave someone like that, because after you leave you are still vulnerable, but in a different way. You need to know how to protect yourself and your children. Be safe! anon

You say you are unhappy. There's your answer: do you want to remain in a relationship where you are not happy? It's not fun being miserable....why do it to yourself? And now, of course, you are doing it to your kids. They may not be aware on a cognitive level of what is going on with you and your husband, but they do know and sense that things are not right. Children are sensitive little creatures, and for right or wrong, this is affecting them as well.

What are your fears if you ''go?'' That you'll have no/less money? Well, worse things have happened to many, many people. That you'll have to get a job? Well, again, many of us work and have kids and things are okay. Your husband will be financially responsible in many ways for the children, so alot of those fears can be eased. (By the way, many single people raise children with no help from the child's father/mother, and they do it, so I think you'll be okay.) What are your other fears? That your family will look at you funny? Oh well, who are you trying to make happy....you or your in-laws/parents? In the end, a happier you makes everyone else happy...especially your children Don't stay for the kids' sake

You say you have ''no means of earning very much.'' Are you sure about that? What I'm trying to get at is that your attitude about yourself is not very positive. Right now things look dark for you, and so it's easy to see the down side of everything, especially yourself. You say you've been asking him to see a therapist for two years. TWO YEARS? That's 24 months. 720 days. And it sounds like you are only getting more unhappy. How many more days, months, years are you going to want to live like this? How do you want to live YOUR life? Do you want to live happy and true to yourself, or do you want to stick it out, and in 20 years (of this caliber of relationship) wake up and be a brittle, miserable shell? Yuck. And more 'stuck' than you are now.

Maybe you still love your husband. But how much do you love you? Decide what you want your course of action to be. If it's separation, then contact a divorce attorney. Tell husband you are desperately unhappy in this relationship and he must do A, B and C or you will proceed with a trial separation and then divorce, if it comes to that. And then follow through with it. Don't let the fear of the unknown stop you. Take what you DO know, (you are unhappy) and go with it Don't stay for the kids' sake

I think you've answered the question for yourself.... it's time to go With a virtual hug in this hard time Hello there.

Decent parents in a miserable relationship

Hello everyone, I have discovered that my partner has been cheating on me and I feel ready to leave him. However, we have a one year old baby and I am a step-mom to his teenager. I have confronted him about the cheating, and pathetically he is still trying to deny that it was more than a few emails - even though the emails detail enough ''interaction'' to make it clear there was more going on.

Anyhow, my first reaction was to pack up and leave, but because of the teen, I want to wait till summer so they don't have to deal with this during school.

Since I confronted him, we have drudged along, almost as if nothing has happened - outside of a miserable relationship we end up being decent parents.

What I need advice on is - How do you gather up the strength to actually leave? I feel afraid of the work it will take to be a single mom. I'm afraid of having to be without my daughter when she spends time with her dad. And since we get along well enough I'm afraid when the time comes (in six months or so) I won't actually go. I never thought I would allow myself to be treated this way and daydream about a real relationship with love and respect.

I know, and don't want my daughter to witness such a poor relationship - and know that if/when i find a healthy one it will be positive modeling for her. But I also feel guilty for taking away the daily interactions with her dad and making her suffer because I chose to be in such a bad relationship.

Has anyone out there been in a similar position and regretted leaving or staying? Also, my family is down in LA and I can't figure out if I should move down to have family support (I have no family and few friends up here), or stay up here so my daughter can be with her father and sibling as much as possible. Even if he is a jerk to me, I know that it is important for her to grow up with a strong relationship with her dad and sibling. any advice is truly appreciated. jane

What I would say to you is that if he is willing to work on the marriage - go to therapy and do whatever it takes to save it - then you should consider remaining in the marriage. Try therapy and see where it takes you.

If he's not willing to do it, then I'd say ''leave''. Now, therapy is not the magic answer. We went to therapy after the first time I found out about his affair and he still continued in it (or went back to her, I'm still not sure). I realize now that the problem was that he hadn't actually owned that what he was doing was wrong (because he didn't have intercourse with her, he was able to fool himself into believing I was the one in he wrong). Also, he wasn't really afraid I would leave (it took him overhearing my conversation with my divorce lawyer to believe it the last time).

Anyway, one and a half year later our marriage is much better. At times I'm still afraid it's all a lie, but much of the time I do trust him. Sometimes I feel it would have been easier if I had left, but what I told myself then and I still tell myself is that while it's not worth it to stay for my kid, it is worth it to try to save the marriage for her. anon

He solved the teenage step-son issue by sending him to live with his grandmother out of state. I feel bad that my daughter doesn't have her big brother around anymore, but they talk on the phone. My soon-to-be ex and I do get along OK on some levels and he is pretty available to our daughter, now that I refuse to let him live with us. So she is probably seeing a better relationship between her parents. I feel better that, after many days that seemed hopeless and I was hysterical, I am standing up for what I know is best for my daughter and me. Being a single parent is a lot of work and it takes a lot of organization and energy. It took some trial and error to decide what was necessary to do and what was not. Good Luck.

And it is comendable to be concerned for her well-being as well. My suggestion to you is a) move out and to where you have support--that is key, if your family is in LA, than there it is and b)it doesn't sound like your husband is that concerned wit! h what happens to the children as he is putting his needs first, not theirs or yours, for that matter. Do not stay together for the children, it's been my experience that this never works.

My husband and I also have a daughter and even though we only see my step daughter once or twice a month (and we are only 30 miles away!) she has excellent relationships with both her dad and her sister. Remember it's about quality not quantity. Good luck

Should I stay or should I go?

I'm wondering about my marriage and if I'm doing the right thing by staying with my husband. He's a hard worker and a great dad to our 5 yr old daughter and 3 yr old son. He went into a cave for the first two years of my son's life and so I finally filed for divoce after a year of counseling (where he had multiple reasons for wanting a divorce but wouldn't do anything about it).

He moved out for two weeks and then ''came to his senses'' and moved back in. The divorce papers were never finalized. He actually talks to me now have we have sex about 1/month. The kids even seem happier. But our marriage is really so ''business like.'' We have our routines, never yell at each other, our chores are split evenly. But we have lost our love for each other, it seems. I realized when he was in his cave how different we are. Rarely does he look me in the eye, rarely do we have meaningful discussions, and he's pretty uninterested in spending time with me alone. I think it is inevitable that we will divorce at some point, and he refuses to go to counseling again.

My current thought is to wait and see what happens when my little guy is at least 5 years old. But without counseling and any real intamacy, I fear we are doomed. What would you do in my situation? By the way, my friends and family think he's gay.

Stay with bipolar husband for the kids?

I've been back and forth about separating from my husband but worry about how it will affect our child. The biggest reason for separating has to do with my husband's mood disorder (bipolar, depression, hyperchondria and more) and his refusal to help himself. Won't take medication or seek some alternative treatment. Just finds some satsifaction in his misery and makes life so difficult for me and our son. I have given up although sometimes there is a glimmer of hope when he is having a good moment (never a good day though.) I'd like to hear from those divorced parents how their kids have faired. Seems like a no brainer that if the relationship is not good it can't be doing the child good but part of me feels it's so nice for a child to have both father and mother in the household (and maybe particularly a father if the child is a boy.) anon

I made the decision to separate from my husband when he refused to take medication and our lives became too erratic, uncontrollable and unpredictable. I did not want to live like that and I knew it was not good for the children.

However, even if you separate, you and your child will still be dealing with your husband whether you are living with him or not. There's custody and visitation and birthdays and holidays and weekends and vacations, etc. which will all need to be negotiated and then may or may not happen.

But the value of separation is that at least there is a place and a parent that is predictable and available when the dad is not. Separation will affect your child (sometimes positively, sometimes negatively); having a bipolar dad affects him.

The result to date:
my ex-husband committed suicide 3 years ago
the older child is in college, incredibly bright, artistic, sociable, and empathetic as he meets people with problems. the younger child is in high school, 4.0 GPA and very athletic with a wide circle of friends.
I'm remarried, finally financially secure. It took 5 years for me to get to a place where I could consider remarriage and a good 10 years to recover.

I think I made the right decision. I could not have been as good a mother to my children if I had stayed married. As it was, they did not receive good mothering for several years, but it was for a limited time.

I hope this is helpful. I had written 2 more paragraphs of advice and ideas (but that wasn't what you asked!) so if you want to contact me directly, please let the moderator know and she can give you my email. Out the other side

Beginning to think about divorce

My husband and I are thinking of separating/divorcing and we have a 5 year old and a 2 year old that we plan to parent jointly. I would appreciate any advice on how to start the process, keeping what is best for the kids in the forefront (even starting with the question, is there hope for a happier couple and family life after divorce or is it better to stick it out till the kids are older?) Specifically, I'd like resources on how to find a mediator (what is his/her role exactly? do I need a lawyer instead in case things get mean?), how to find affordable rental housing near my current residence (how do we pay for 2 households that the kids will feel good being at?), and how to best tell and help the kids (is Kids' Turn useful? how do we know what kind of parenting agreement is best?). As you can tell, I am at a loss as to how to approach all the considerations of this sad situation and I really do not know anyone who is separated/divorced at this stage of life. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks.

So, that said, I would recommend that you first try to make agreements on visitation with the kids, then on finances (the most troublesome issue for divorcing people). See how the negotiating goes before calling in outside help - I think a total of $100,000 has been spent on my partner's divorce between the two of them and his ex hasn't been paying attorney's fees for the past 2 or 3 years. Personally, I would not put anything in writing unless you add the caveat that it is not an agreement, but a work in process until you are satisfied. I would also consult a lawyer as a back-up for two reasons: things may get mean, and you two probably won't realize all the details involved in separating the two households (who gets to use the kids as a deduction, who gets to order school pics, who gets Christmas/Thanksgiving/Hannukah/etc?).

There is a GREAT book that we have (and would have liked to use more in dealing with his ex) called ''How to Avoid the Divorce from Hell'' by M. Sue Talia. It was recommended to us by the financial arbitrator/consultant that analyzed their house monies and credits/reimbursements.

As far as discussing things with the kids.... I really have no idea. My partner separated from his ex when their daughter was a few weeks old. My parents split when I was 5. We have had a much easier experience with step-parenting than many of the other step-moms I know simply because my step-daughter has never known her father without me (I do not have the ''interloper'' title). In that sense, it can be easier to separate earlier rather than later. Kids are pretty resilient and as long as both parents can cooperate, then the situation can be beneficial to everyone.

I wish you lots of luck. Keep your eyes wide-open and don't be surprised by anything - both good and bad. anon

We also went to Kids Turn. My ex didn't want to go the first time around. Then within the year our daughter asked to go again. He went with her the second time. We both got a lot out of it and so did our daughter apparently, the fact that she wanted to go again!

I'm making it sound easy, but it wasn't. The emotional part was very difficult, but luckily neither of us wanted or needed a big fight in court, etc. We had very little ''property'' so those weren't issues for us. Money was tricky at times and was probably the hardest part to talk about (still is for that matter!), but that could be individual.

Good Luck! You need to go into survival mode for a lot of this stuff (moving, et al.), but eventually you will be settled and can relax into your new life. anon

Lastly, I hope you and your husband have gone through couples counseling before you make any decisions on divorce. Please try all other avenues before splitting. At least you can't say you didn't try hard in staying together. M

I went to visit the Nolo Press bookshop and spent a good chunk of an afternoon looking thru their books on divorce, joint parenting, finances, etc. I bought the books I thought most comprehensive... others I checked out from the library.

Also: Should I Stay or Should I Go? by Lee Raffel, M.S.W. and Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum were both great at articulating the ambivalence, and suggesting tools to find one's own clarity.

I began work with a great local therapist (Carol Jenkins) to take a closer look at my fears and my hopes about marriage/life/ speaking out. I also did some research... For example, when I read about mediators, I then spoke to several to get an idea of the path ahead. I spoke to a child psychologist about my concerns (I have a young child) and when we were about to physically separate my husband and I met with her to discuss how we would talk to our son about the divorce.

All of this was extremely helpful to me. All things considered our family is doing well, six months post-separation. I understand the enormity of your decision and would be happy to share my resources/books with you at any time. Best of luck to you! dearsooz

Don't want to move out (therapist says I should)

My husband and I have been going to couples therapy for a few months and we decided its time to split up for a variety of reasons, but in a nutshell he has tried to cut me off from my friends and family, and completely failed to support me emotionally.

The whole time we have been together I have always been the sole wage earner and supported him financially, even before I got pregnant and had our now one year old. After the baby was born, he has been the primary caregiver while I work two jobs to support us. I asked him if he would stick around the area if we split up and the baby stayed with me and he said probably not, so this would involve finding care for the child and paying someone to do it, which I'm willing to do. But, at our therapy session, the therapist suggested that I move out of our apartment, find my own place to live and pay him what I would pay a child care provider so that he can continue living in our place and taking care of the child while I work. This just doesn't feel right, although I do see that from the perspective of the child, it would provide the least disruption and allow a continued relationship with the father, to the extent that that is a good thing. But first of all, even the most expensive daycare wouldn't cost as much as rent and expenses of the apartment. Second, I am still nursing, and I don't want to wean the baby just because we are splitting up. But perhaps more importantly, I think I would be very resentful continuing to support him.

Am I being selfish to not want to move out and give up custody? I think I have always felt taken advantage of by him and I don't want the act of splitting up to be one more chance for him to take advantage of my generosity. I have tried to assess whether I would feel differently if I were in his position and I was sahm and he was the wage earner, but I really think the situation is not comparable, because if that were the case I think I would just want exactly the same situation I want now-- to have custody, find child care, and work a job(s) to support me and the child. Help! I don't know how to think about this, and I really feel betrayed by the therapist. anonymous

I say, move on with your life. I think this therapist is suggesting an alternative that may ultimately require you to perpetuate what sounds like a co-dependent (or, at least, *dependent*) relationship, so I am stunned that this therapist would suggest such a thing. I think it is very irresponsible. Let this guy support himself for a change. Best of luck! ~Alesia

So you really need the advice of a lawyer to determine which of the two arrangements would be cheapest for you and which one your husband, who may also seek legal advice, would be willing to accept. You may also want the lawyer to draw up a spousal support (not the legal term) agreement to cover living arrangement agreement and compensation for child care until you are divorced if you go this route.

I'm sorry you're going through this and wish you much luck. kim

Some of the elements in this situation sound a bit confused as you present them, however, so let me try to sort through what I read. You say the therapist suggested that you move out of the apt., find your own place to live and pay your husband for the child care he provides. This is not the same as suggesting you give up custody and pay all your husband's living expenses. It sounds to me like it means the child would still spend days with his father in the same apt. as he always has, but the child would go home with you (to a new place) in the evenings and, presumably, for the weekends, etc. I don't necessarily agree you should be the one who moves, though. Your husband could find his own place and come to your apt. daily to provide the child care. If your husband is not able to live on what you'd pay him for the child care, and doesn't find a way to make it work, (caring for another child at the same time?) he may decide to leave the area. So be it. He will have had a real chance to behave like a responsible partner, adult and father, and instead showed you (once again?)that he's not up to the challenge.

I don't see any reason why you should continue to be the one shouldering all the burdens involved with making this change or maintaining the status quo. If the father is only interested in sticking around and being involved with his child as long as you're willing to support him, and he won't try to be more of a partner, even at the risk of losing you both, well, who can blame you for wanting to separate?

I don't see anything at all wrong with what you say at the end of your message about what you want now. Best wishes to you

If I were in your shoes, I'd too want to see my very selfish husband move out, leaving me with primary custody, and contributing financially to the support of our child while I continued to do the same.

It might be useful to find a new therapist, all your own, who can help support you during this difficult chapter. You and your baby deserve a less biased and much more balanced and supportive arbiter in this decision.

Thanks for sharing your concerns with the digest community and best of luck with this process. I hope everything works out in a way that is most harmonious for all while still best for you and your baby. Best wishes.

I also suggest finding another therapist who is solely there to support you in doing what is best for you. I think the current therapist's idea is ridiculous! (sorry, but your post really hit a nerve). There are MANY bad therapists out there and this one is pushing you to do something you clearly don't want to do which I feel is unethical. It would be different if you were a family unit, living together and he was a stay-at-home dad, because then you are sharing the burden of chosing to live on one income. But this is different.

I hope this didn't come off as too preachy- I wish you the best! anon

At any rate, I think the therapist is trying to help you end the relationship gracefully. If this guy has free room and board, you will not be able to pry him outta there. You will have to leave the apartment. If you offer to pay him to take care of the baby, this will look generous. It is his problem if that is not enough money to live on. I suspect that he has no interest in nanny wages or the baby, and even if he agrees to take care of the baby he will not do so for long. He will likely find another woman to sponge off of. Sorry to be so harsh, but that is the way I see it. anon

By the way this advice comes from a former executive now a sahm, whose husband has risen to the occasion to support our family, and who would not hesitate to return to work if it was putting stress on him and our family. Best of luck in this difficult situation, Cheryl

Good people who undergo relationship trauma will use any media, including a post, to alleviate pain by projecting a manipulative defense. I know I would be capable of it. But for casual readers to launch in and effectively validate this one-sided version of reality is troubling. This is especially the case when responders contradict professional advice, of which this post is not unique. Indeed, by now a regular reader of this page can expect an array of self-confirming responses from such a post. What better way for separating spouses to confirm their distrust in a lawyer, mediator, or therapist then have it reflected from a dozen literate voices. But very few separations are ''one- sided'' - of which professionals are well aware. Inevitably, a competent professional will diffuse a situation with reality- checks that are resisted from both sides. In our rather self- oriented society, this is already hard for parties to accept. So I'm not sure that a spontaneous reaction to an unverified and potentially distorted post serves the interests of the traumatized family.

Perhaps, at least, it is best when responders note their own marital background and experience, so our inevitably biased perspectives become a little more obvious. For example, I am in a long-term marriage that's overcome ebbs and flows, usually through the mutual assimilation of conflict responsibility. So perhaps I am biased towards a conflict-resolution approach, whereas a divorced person might be more attuned to pain avoidance. Brian

Of course couples often distort the truth and seek revenge during the course of separating. And of course it isn't fair of us to offer support based on only one side of the story. Unfortunately, many things are unfair.

Regardless of how things came about, my heart goes out to this woman because in the midst of potentially biased information, the following (rather unfair) facts emerge quite clearly:

(1) The consequences of separation tend to fall harder on women with children. Mothers must create a secure environment even when they grieve and their own lives are falling apart; (2) Motherhood can be physically and emotionally exhausting even *with* emotional and financial support. This particular mother has neither of those; and (3) If a therapist makes the client feel betrayed, the therapist did something wrong. A good therapist should understand and respect their clients' emotional issues and boundaries sufficiently to facilitate growth and awareness of unpleasant truths, etc. without making the client feel betrayed.

I don't think that someone would post a message to half of the East Bay concerning such intensely personal matters unless they felt sincerely overwhelmed, isolated and in need of outside perspectives from a caring and knowledgeable community. Which is perfectly reasonable, since we all signed up to be part of such a community.

I appreciate your call for greater objectivity, Brian. We all should definitely consider the issues you raise. However, I also strongly believe that sometimes empathy - and hence subjectivity - is the most appropriate thing. Elisabeth

Yet not only did I get validation of my instincts (and there is nothing wrong with being told to trust one's instincts), but at the same time I received a lot of valuable perspectives on my stripped-away situation. I think Brian underestimates me and others who post seeking advice on difficult emotional and/or relationship issues when he says ''I'm not sure that a spontaneous reaction to an unverified and potentially distorted post serves the interests of the traumatized family.'' I am perfectly capable of seeing the spontaneous/emotional reactions to my situation for where they may come from and what perspective they are likely to be representing, and I know that my post was distorted and unverified...how could it not be?!! I also think he underestimates those who responded...of course they know that I haven't presented all the facts and that things may be distorted. They are not being asked to judge the verity of the information, but to respond given the admittedly limited information with which they were presented.

In giving their advice, people helped me understand the limitations of the therapist/therapy situation. Yes, some people were more vehement than others, but I found very helpful those who pointed out that maybe I hadn't made some of my issues clear and that the therapist is privy only to a finite amount of information from which to suggest resolutions and guide action (hmmm, not unlike this forum!). Yes, people ''contradicted professional advice'', but they backed up their contradictions with reasoned explanations and suggestions that I could then assimilate and use as I deemed appropriate. That was the point of soliciting advice in this forum!!

Finally, I will say that while Brian is correct that I am possibly trying ''to alleviate pain by projecting a manipulative defense'', this is not occurring in a vacuum. Of course I know that my (soon to be ex-) spouse has many good qualities and even that I am also guilty of some manipulation. I respect that Brian's marriage has overcome conflict in a way that mine has not, and that the same things that I may call manipulation he may have a more gentle term for. Nonetheless, if I *feel* manipulated, then I am, and part of extricating from this difficult relationship has been recognizing that for what it is, what it can do to a person and a family, and when it can be changed and when it can't.

That said, let me just say how grateful I am to be part of this community and thank you all for sharing your thoughtful perspectives and experiences. still remaining anonymous

Hopeless in my marriage

I am interested to hear how people make the decision to split up. Do you just "know" when it's too broke to fix? I've been with my husband for 4 years. Our relationship is characterised by ugly escalations. A year into our relationship, I said "couples counseling or it's over" because I was so upset by his raging, and we have been going ever since. Although it has really saved us thus far, for the past 6 months or so I've been feeling increasingly hopeless about ever getting my needs met.

The typical pattern: I express a need, he ''defends'' against it with accusation, blaming, raised voice, and it unravels from there. He gets incredibly ugly and mean - he is obviously fighting for his life and while on some level I feel compassion, I am sick of the lack of accountability for inappropriate, acting-out type behavior. I'm also very worried about how this behavior affects our 8-month old.

He's been getting treatment for clinical depression (meds and therapy) for the last 4+ months. I'm mildly codependent and focusing alot on how my stuff plays a part in it (reading books, therapy, Coda). We have both worked very hard but I am not feeling safer or more secure in our connection; if anything my trust in him is eroding. Lately he has been secretive about things, which doesn't help... he's an addictive type.

A lot of this obviously goes back to childhood, and knowing how unloving his was, I wonder if there is any hope. Do people with that degree of damage in their pasts truly heal, and if so, what does it take? And if anyone has been in a parallel situation and got divorced, what's your take on that, looking back? Thank you very much if you read this far and I appreciate any advice from those who have been in similar situations.