Thinking about Breaking Up
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December 2006
I would be interested in hearing from people who ended a marriage,
because they simply grew apart. At what point did you realize your
distance was not going to turn itself around? My husband and I
have been together almost 15 years. We have a young son. Up until
about 5 years ago, we were very happy together. We would go away
for the weekend, take our baby on outings, go out for dinner, and
laugh and talk and watch movies all the time. In recent years, our
careers have taken us in very different directions. It has been
gradual, but these days I feel as though we are roommates rather
than spouses. He has his friends, I have mine. We rarely go to
eachother's work events. He has his hobbies and interests (which
are sort of boring to me), and I have mine (which aren't his thing
either). When we attempt to do things the other likes to do, it
feels rather forced or obviously an effort. When we do go out for
dinner together, it tends to be very silent at the table, both of
us grasping for things to talk about. Usually the subject goes
right back to how great our son is, and what he did today that was
funny. We are nice to each other, and we love our son and our home
very much, but I often feel very lonely in my own marriage. What
is especially difficult is, we LIKE each other. I don't think
either of us wants to hurt the other, or abandon the other.
However, we are both in our 30's, and life is short. I find myself
thinking about parting ways from time to time, and I feel guilty
about it. Can anybody out there relate?
Feeling More and More Lonely
I was in exactly your shoes ten years ago, except that I had 3 kids. I
did nothing about the problem, thinking it would eventually get better
or that I could just settle for what I had.
To my very great surprise, I unexpectedly fell in love with someone
else. After several very hard years and an acrimonious divorce, I
married the other man, and I'm happy. If I had it to do over again, I
would put re-connecting with my (then-)husband at the top of my list of
priorities and give the marriage everything I had. And then if the
relationship still didn't come back to life, I'd leave. Doing it
consciously is millions of miles better than doing it unconsciously the
way I did.
Especially when there are children involved --anonymous
Hi. your posting sounds just like me! And I've been married 22 years (a
second marriage for both of us). Our kids are grown and out of the
house. I often feel what you are talking about. I've worked really hard
to get reconnected with my husband.
We have gone to therapy at times in order to get some help. I think
taking each other for granted has created this distance. Remember those
little things we used to notice about each other that have become every
day now? I think so much of what you are talking about results from all
that time together. I have started to accept the ''drifting apart'' as a
phase in a long marriage. I try to rejoice in doing what I love
(swimming, knitting, visiting with women friends, snowboarding) and
leave him alone to enjoy what he loves. I am sorry I don't have answers
for you, just empathy. B
By all means see a marriage counselor! You have a great son, a good
home, and a successful career. You say you like your husband. Well,
there must be some love left there! Don't let your marriage end. If
you're lonely now, you'll be even lonelier if you leave. Explore the
issues with a couple's therapist first.
You mentioned too many good things in your life to just walk away from.
That's my advice Anon
What you are experiencing is common. I suggest you
read: 'Surrendering to Marriage: Husbands, Wives, and Other
Imperfections' by Iris Krasnow And then try to decide whether you want
to make the marriage work or not. If so, try marriage counseling. A
link to the book is here:
http://tinyurl.com/yx82pk
good luck!
Being in one's 30's and having a young child is a tough time.
What I would suggest is that you not focus on ''him'' or the
''marriage'' but look at yourself. It takes two people to carry on a
conversation. A friend of mine went through a very similar situation,
and her marriage was on the rocks, but when she decided to stimulate her
creativity, and to look at what made her vibrant and alive, within 2
months, her marriage was ''different''
and they started having fun again. You have a lot - a young child - you
like each other - there seems to be a lot of caring.
I would suggest taking a look at: The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron.
What turns you on. It's exciting and fun being with exciting and fun
people. So go have some fun, and do the things that make you more
vibrant.
Having said that - working with your husband to have more fun and a
better time together is absolutely doable and important. I suggest
taking a look at Harville Hendrix, Getting The Love You Want, A Guide
for Couples. Relationships are like plants - they need nurturing
pruning, attention. A lot of it with small children, is we adults are
tired. So having an intention to nurture our relationship, and then a
plan, and then doing some of it is really helpful. Harville's
suggestions worked for me. My husband and I will be celebrating 25
years next year - and when our youngest was 3, we separated and my
husband actually moved out for a period of time. So hang in there.
Relationships Are Worth Nurturing
Oct 2006
My husband and I have been married 8 years previous to a brief
courtship, we have two kids, 3y and 10 mo we argue frequently I
find it very hard to express my feelings to him etc with out
him getting ,mad or sullen or a he could say the same thing
about me or somehow being persuaded that I am in the wrong, so
that I feel that it is I that shld aplgise.
I'm yelled at for things I feel are unness and then he'll say
some sml but disparageing remark to thin air or wrs to our boy
about me(or the latest- high five our boy if he is rude to me!)
now I never used to put him down to our kids but as time goes
on, and I hate myself for it,I have started to do the same
subtly but none the less.
Recently when we argued(kidsinbed)he said he felt like punching
me in the face!Then later pointed his finger at me and made a
banging noise. He never apologises for this kinda thing and has
recently admitted he'ed aquired a hand gun(v. scary with a bad
temper)with out consulting with-knows I disagree with guns upon
me voicing my opinion I again was made to feel wrong myself.
Life is seemingly getting worse for us and though I have seen a
therapist which helps but too $$,we have tried counselling,(not
really found a match)and sometimes later said he wasn't serious
and subsequently go back on his word on things agreed. He went
to grp anger mngment but missed sessions frequently, he has
also told me he knows he has issues and will seek out a
therapist but if I inquire as to if he has taken any steps more
than once or twice he will tell me if I continue to ask he will
not go into therapy - this has been happening on and off for 2
years now I think this is an excuse. He often seeks my opinion
and when I give it I am told I am not a good listener. He was
brought up in a very untrusting non comunicative househld and I
don't wish to bring this on our kids. I know single moms - it
seems very hard but they are happy to me, I hope he would
support us - I have no means of earning very much.
I am desperately unhappy and so is he I feel he would benifit
from meds am I being too impatient? To picky? To nagging? All
of the above? T.Y. for reading this and thinking about it for
me cause I just go up and down like a yo-yo.
Yo-Yo
Please leave! This man is being abusive and sounds potentially very dangerous. You
cannot sit around (especially with children) while he deals with his anger manageemnt
issues. You need to live in a safe place where you are not being belittled, abused and
threatened, and where your childrne are not being brought into the conflict. From that
safe place maybe you can explore marriage counselling, as long as he is sticking to his
own therapy, etc
take care of yourself
Dear yo-yo,
It is very difficult to decide to leave a committed
relationship. You are pulled in many directions by feelings of
obligation, fears (in your case of violence), doubts (even
doubts about your self-worth), worries about the welfare of
your children and money, etc. I think that my first answer
would be that you should see a therapist for yourself, not
because there's anything wrong with you, but because you need
to find out precisely what it is that you want and need. What
does this relationship give you besides grief? How could you
find the strength to leave if that's what you decide you need
to do? A good therapist could help you come to a decision and
develop ways of coping with the challenges that arise from your
decision.
I was in a marriage for many years that did not bring me
happiness and left me feeling inadequate and unloved. My
situation was different in that my spouse was not violent or
disrespectful in the obvious ways that yours is, but it was
similar in that one of my husband's needs was to make me feel
as incompetent and powerless as possible. A therapist would
help you get back some of your self-confidence so that you
could reject the bad self-image your husband gives you.
I wish you luck in finding your way -- have faith in yourself
and be good to yourself and your kids
former yo-yo
I feel very much for your situation, and the bottom line is you
need to take care of yourself and your kids. They did not ask
to be a part of a family with this anger, and you are harming
them if they are in that situation. You have to set boundries
with your husband around what's ok and what's not, and if he's
not willing to honor those boundries, you need to go. I was in
a similar, maybe not quite to bad, situation. I went to see a
wonderful therapist named John Petroni in El Cerrito. His
number is 510-527-2955. I really couldn't afford him either,
but I only needed to see him twice to really help me shift. As
a result, my husband has shifted to and we are both much
happier now. You need to stop focusing on what he is doing and
focus on taking care of yourself and your kids.
Jenny
GO!!!! You are married to an abuser. He has shown no awareness
of this nor inclination/ability to change. If you stay, the
probability that you will be beaten is very, very high. The
probability that you will end up murdered is also too high for
comfort. If you do survive, your children will learn that this
is normal and will repeat the cycle in their adult lives,
possibly with worse results. Find and call an abused women's
hotline and formulate an escape plan before he makes that
impossible for you. Do it today.
Worried for you
I feel so sad for your situation, it sounds like you
acknowledge that it takes two to make a relationship work, but
in this case I would say it's deteriorated into an abusive
relationship and no matter what work you put in, I do think the
situation requires you to take leave. Do you have friends or
family to help you through this? Co-workers you trust? Please,
I hope you can find the strength to get help for yourself, and
for your kids. Counseling for you - there are several sliding
scale options available in Alameda County. Your 10 year old son
KNOWS that Dad high-fiving him for being rude is wrong and is
sure to fill him with conflicting feelings and fear. I would
take him to counselling too. I'm sure this is painful but you
should go, and fast. I would also consider calling the police
if he threatens you again. Is his handgun licenced? Locked?
Frankly, in this sadly violent day and age when men seem unable
to reckon with their rage and go gun crazy, and women break
down and harm themselves and/or their kids, I would err on the
side of caution, get a lawyer, get custody of the kids and RUN
the hell away. Taking rational steps toward that end is not
going to be easy (or cheap) but for your well-being it's worth
every effort
MM
Get out. Now. Your husband is abusing you (not physically, but may; it
sounds like things are escalating), and is teaching your child to do the
same
Karen
Your situation and emotional state sound very familiar to me -- I
was going through something similar when my children were 5 and
8. I felt unhappy, trapped, and confused about what to do. I kept
wondering if I was exaggerating things, if I was crazy, if this
was normal, if I was being oversensitive, if I could change it.
It got to the place that every communication seemed loaded and I
couldn't express myself naturally. My husband was anxious and
impatient and I found myself talking in ways that I wouldn't have
otherwise.
I'd like to recommend a book, ''The Verbally Abusive
Relationship.'' It helped to put a name to types of communications
that were unhealthy, and gave tips for attempting to change
abusive communications.
I also recommend talking to someone at a women's center who has
experience and training with verbally abusive relationships. At
first I would not have called my situation ''domestic violence,''
but I met with someone at a center for domestic violence who
illuminated me about healthy and unhealthy/damaging patterns. I
joined a support group of other women who were in verbally
abusive situations, and finally I gathered the strength to leave
my relationship. What was hardest was wondering if I was doing
the right thing. Once I left and was on my own, my mind felt sane
and clear.
I did try counseling with my husband, but it didn't help at all.
I don't think he wanted to change.
I am now in a new relationship of three years -- I feel like a
different person, free and open and healthy. It makes such a
difference when your partner is healthy and can communicate with
you without blaming or name-calling or belittling or getting
anxious. I am much less angry in dealing with my children -- much
more calm and loving.
This whole process wasn't easy, and your patterns may be
''fixable,'' but I am so glad I left! I hadn't realized how much of
my unhappiness and ''failure to thrive'' was due to my relationship.
Happy Now with Healthy Man
You are in an abusive relationship and will need to leave. There
are many ways to do that, but get some support from anywhere you
can. The big thing you need to realize is that you are ENTITLED
to child support--don't ''hope'' for it, get a lawyer and DEMAND
it! It's the law. Good luck to you
another mom
Definately, go. That is, if you feel couples counseling and or
anger management classes will not work. Is this how you want your
children to grow up and treat their spouses/partners? That is
what they are learning from him. Worse yet, they are learning
from you, that it's ok to be treated that way, and they will.
I know it's easier said than done, but get out now
Good luck to you.
My dear friend,
My heartfelt advice to you is that you must, absolutely must get out of this
relationship. This is a very dangerous situation, you must get out.
How lucky for you that you are not married and don't have to go through the hassle
of the divorce. Please know that your marital status will NOT affect your ability to
get child support from your kids' dad.
You MUST see a lawyer immediately, and I would also suggest contacting a women's
shelter or abuse-support group, because if this man hears that you are thinking of
leaving him, he may very well become violent. He has shown you in many, many
ways that he is capable of this.
You are ''desperately unhappy'' and he is teaching your kids to disrespect you as he
does. Is there anything in the world that can make this situation better for you?
The answer is no. The only way to make your life better is to get away from him.
Yes, single motherhood is hard, but not as hard as what you're putting up with. I
know -- I've been there.
Find friends who can help you -- turn to family -- leave the area -- do whatever you
need to do to get away. Life doesn't have to be a misery.
Good Luck --
Been There, Got Out, Now Happy
I imagine you will get lots of advice on this one... I feel
compelled to add my two cents, based on five years in an
emotionally abusive relationship. Your husband is not treating
you fairly, kindly or respectfully. You and your children
deserve better!!! It it *outrageous* that he would high-five
your young son after being rude to you - not only is he showing
tremendous disrespect, but he is teaching your son to be
disrespectful of you, and of women in general. In my
experience - and from reading I've done to understand the
relationship I was in - abuse only escalates, unless there is
serious intervention and commitment to change. If your husband
will not seriously pursue therapy and anger management, your
only recourse maybe to contact some reliable friends or family
members (or even a women's shelter) and make plans for your
departure. Leaving my ex-boyfriend was the best thing I ever
did, and it still took me at least 5 years to regain my
confidence and put my life back together. The sooner you move
on, the sooner you can begin to heal
Been there
Please make a plan to bail out of this toxic living situation.
Please look up, call, La Casa De Las Madres, www.lacasa.org, and
see how they can provide resources for you and your children.
This man obviously does not respect you as he criticizes you and
teases you with YOUR LIFE as he ''pretends that his finger is a
revolver and points it to your face with your children in
sight!! and the worst part is HE BRINGS A GUN TO YOUR HOME.
Please, please, leave this man so your children can have a
mother in their life as this man does not deserve the title of
father!! I work for the court system and there are resources
out there for you. Please help yourself and your children by
escaping the grips of this toxic man who is not an example that
your children need in their lives. Unfortunately you're falling
down to his level by committing the same error of belittling him
as he belittles you, which in turn can only escalate to worse
things down the road, e.g., physical outbursts and violence. I
know what I'm talking about because I've been there and my ex
husband and I had to split before one of us killed each other.
Please, please get out of this if not for you, for your
children!! This is a secret you have to share with close
friends or family or someone who can provide you shelter. It is
better to live alone than being with a useless awful and
dangerous ''companion''. God Bless You.
anon
If you are desperately unhappy, and having no luck with therapy (whatever the
reason) I would be inclined to say ''GO.'' You sound not only unhappy, but scared as
well.
Additionally, you two are setting the example for your kids of what a marriage
should look like, and how a married couple should behave toward one another. Is
your relationship with your husband what you would want your kids to have? Is how
your husband behaves toward you the way you'd want to see your son treat his wife,
when he gets married? If you have a daughter, do you want some one to treat her
the way you are being treated?
Finally, putting the children in the middle of your conflict is absolutely unacceptable
on both of your parts, which is what you and your husband are doing when you say
bad things about one another to them.
I don't know the whole story, but from what you say, it doesn't sound as if your
husband is not showing much respect for your needs, his needs, or the needs of
your children. Are you? Yes, I'd say, time to go. Try to find a support network of
some kind, either family, friends or a group of some kind, but get yourself and your
kids out of there as soon as possible, and consult with a divorce attorney
Anonymous
Yikes. You need to tell somebody in real life about the gun. Do you know where it
is? You need to know for your children's safety. For the rest, if you do not feel that
you are in danger, you might be able to work this out when the baby is over a year
old. My husband and I have had some really nasty fights that I know are the result of
stress. But if you are in danger, leave now and figure out the details later
anon
Wow! That sounds like a scary situation! The threats of
physical violence should not be ignored, especially since he has
just acquired a handgun. He sounds like a very dangerous man,
and specifically very dangerous to you.
My advice: Do not stay with this man!
There is an excellent book called ''The Gift of Fear'' by Gavin de
Becker. It talks about *how* to leave someone like that, because
after you leave you are still vulnerable, but in a different way.
You need to know how to protect yourself and your children.
Be safe!
anon
The decision whether to stay or go is up to you. I know that is
obvious, but it needs to get said. No one out here will be able
to TELL you what to do.
You say you are unhappy. There's your answer: do you want to
remain in a relationship where you are not happy? It's not fun
being miserable....why do it to yourself? And now, of course,
you are doing it to your kids. They may not be aware on a
cognitive level of what is going on with you and your husband,
but they do know and sense that things are not right. Children
are sensitive little creatures, and for right or wrong, this is
affecting them as well.
What are your fears if you ''go?'' That you'll have no/less money?
Well, worse things have happened to many, many people. That
you'll have to get a job? Well, again, many of us work and have
kids and things are okay. Your husband will be financially
responsible in many ways for the children, so alot of those fears
can be eased. (By the way, many single people raise children
with no help from the child's father/mother, and they do it, so I
think you'll be okay.) What are your other fears? That your
family will look at you funny? Oh well, who are you trying to
make happy....you or your in-laws/parents? In the end, a happier
you makes everyone else happy...especially your children
Don't stay for the kids' sake
Sorry....I'm getting long winded here. Part Two.
You say you have ''no means of earning very much.'' Are you sure
about that? What I'm trying to get at is that your attitude
about yourself is not very positive. Right now things look dark
for you, and so it's easy to see the down side of everything,
especially yourself.
You say you've been asking him to see a therapist for two years.
TWO YEARS? That's 24 months. 720 days. And it sounds like you
are only getting more unhappy. How many more days, months, years
are you going to want to live like this? How do you want to live
YOUR life? Do you want to live happy and true to yourself, or do
you want to stick it out, and in 20 years (of this caliber of
relationship) wake up and be a brittle, miserable shell? Yuck.
And more 'stuck' than you are now.
Maybe you still love your husband. But how much do you love you?
Decide what you want your course of action to be. If it's
separation, then contact a divorce attorney. Tell husband you
are desperately unhappy in this relationship and he must do A, B
and C or you will proceed with a trial separation and then
divorce, if it comes to that. And then follow through with it.
Don't let the fear of the unknown stop you. Take what you DO
know, (you are unhappy) and go with it
Don't stay for the kids' sake
Men like this wear you down subtly and over time. Your
self-confidence has been utterly shattered, but I assure you that
you are more than you think you are. You probably have plenty of
earning capacity, once you regain your esteem and pursue it.
The pattern for emotional abuse and control is just what you've
described. Also, it does escalate to physical abuse. With his
owning a gun, and pretending to shoot you, there's no doubt where
this will lead if you stay.
Call a Domestic Abuse Helpline - they can steer you the right way.
I am so worried for you and your children. Please follow your instincts about being
scared of the combination your husband's temper and him recently acquiring a hand
gun. Please call on your friends, and family to help protect you and your children from
serious harm. Do not be embarrased to ask them for help! This happens in all kinds
of families. You may also want to read ''You Don't Have to Take it Anymore'' by Steven
Stosny, Ph.D it deals in depth about the root cause of emotionally abusive relationships
and how to transform them. Peace to you and your loved ones
Anon
I highly recommend you contact the Family Violence Law Center
(510) 208-0220 for some support and assesment about your
situation. As a former domestic violence advocate, your
situation sounds very familiar and given that your husband just
purchased a hand gun, I do not think you are being too picky,
nagging, or over-reacting in any way. From your description, it
seems clear your husband does not respect you and is encouraging
your children to follow suit. Please continue to reach out and
get help. Domestic violence often starts out in milder forms, as
you've described but can quickly escalate to direct physical
violence. Having a gun in the home highly increases the chance
that an incident could become deadly. If he is telling you he
wants to hit you, he may act this out, or worse in the very near
future.
very worried for your safety
It sounds like you're both deteriorating rapidly in your
relationships toward eachother.
The fact that you guys are starting to use the kids against
eachother would be a sign for me that it's time to go. If
nothing else for a separation period. Children should NEVER be
used to settle adults' business.
I think you've answered the question for yourself.... it's time
to go
With a virtual hug in this hard time
Hello there.
You should go. WIthout a doubt. Just because you leave the situation does
not mean
you're walking out on this relationship, just that you are making it clear
that the
current situation is unacceptable and can no longer continue. Take your
children
and go, to the house of a friend, to your family, to wherever you can be
safe and
take some time to contemplate your next step. Your husband has made it
clear that
he currently has no interest in changing his behaviour. Partly that's
because there
are no consequences for it. I am not saying you're responsible for his
behavior, I am
saying that you have choices about whether to let him get away with it any
longer.
Now that he's dragging your son into it he has made it clear that he is
prepared to
ruin your son's life too, and you cannot let that happen. If you and he
show your son
that it's ok for a man to abuse his wife like this then your son will grow
up to do the
same thing. And the escalation in the level of aggressiveness is indeed
worrying.
Trust your gut. This man is not safe right now. You need to leave before
something
tragic happens. Physical abuse often starts in exactly the way you
describe, with an
escalation in emotional or verbal abuse. He is warning you: I want to
punch you in
the face, he says. I have bought a gun, he says, pointing his finger at
your face and
pretending to shoot you. He is trying to tell you that he is afraid he
will lose control,
and before he does you need to get out of his way, and take your children
somewhere safe. PLEASE listen to your instincts and protect yourself now
Worried about you.
My heart goes out to you! I think that it is wonderful that you
are reaching out for support. You don't sound too picky, etc.
He sounds abusive and I am concerned about your safety
(disrespect, violent gestures and words, plus a gun!). You need
to decide if you are willing to get a separation or divorce if
he says/does any more of these violent things. Then I would
suggest that you clearly and gently communicate this to him.
For this to be effective, you *must* follow through on your
words. He probably will test you in some way - be ready with
your response. I have had the experience of successfully
working through some heavy couple things. But both parts of the
couple must be willing to do their part. You can't force him to
do any of the things that would be potentially helpful: anger
management group and individual therapy for him, or couples
therapy. But you can decide that you don't want to be with
someone who doesn't take these steps. Additionally, if either
one of you are in a 12-Step group, e.g.: AA, Al-Anon, Co-
Dependants Anonymous (which might be helpful for you and is
free), etc., you both could go to Recovering Couples Anonymous.
my partner and I have had experience getting support, tools, and
non-judgemental listening in this group. I hope that you can
find some way to afford individual therapy - you need support!
Finally may I suggest books by Harriet Lerner: ''The Dance of
Anger'' and ''The Dance of Intimacy.'' Good luck - you might be
suprised out how much power you have to change things by gently,
firmly, and lovingly setting your boundaries!
A
Jan. 2004
Hello everyone,
I have discovered that my partner has been cheating on me and I
feel ready to leave him. However, we have a one year old baby
and I am a step-mom to his teenager. I have confronted him
about the cheating, and pathetically he is still trying to deny
that it was more than a few emails - even though the emails
detail enough ''interaction'' to make it clear there was more
going on.
Anyhow, my first reaction was to pack up and leave, but because
of the teen, I want to wait till summer so they don't have to
deal with this during school.
Since I confronted him, we have drudged along, almost as if
nothing has happened - outside of a miserable relationship we
end up being decent parents.
What I need advice on is - How do you gather up the strength to
actually leave? I feel afraid of the work it will take to be a
single mom. I'm afraid of having to be without my daughter when
she spends time with her dad. And since we get along well
enough I'm afraid when the time comes (in six months or so) I
won't actually go. I never thought I would allow myself to be
treated this way and daydream about a real relationship with
love and respect.
I know, and don't want my daughter to witness such a poor
relationship - and know that if/when i find a healthy one it
will be positive modeling for her. But I also feel guilty for
taking away the daily interactions with her dad and making her
suffer because I chose to be in such a bad relationship.
Has anyone out there been in a similar position and regretted
leaving or staying? Also, my family is down in LA and I can't
figure out if I should move down to have family support (I have
no family and few friends up here), or stay up here so my
daughter can be with her father and sibling as much as
possible. Even if he is a jerk to me, I know that it is
important for her to grow up with a strong relationship with her
dad and sibling.
any advice is truly appreciated.
jane
My husband and I divorced last year, and even though it was his
idea, it was the best thing to do for our kids. They can detect
the pressure and unhappiness more than you might imagine. I am
now able to speak with him in a pleasant manner in front of the
kids and each of us is involved in a more loving relationship
which is a much better role model for the kids.
I don't have advice for you on the L.A. move. I think it depends
how close you are to your parents and if they would be willing
to spell you on some childcare.
anon
Did I write this message? Your situat! ion is almost exactly what I
went through a year and a half ago (differences were that there
was no 13 year old, my baby was 1-month old and it was the third
time I discovered him cheating with this woman).
I was quite ready to get a divorce and flee to my parents in LA,
but I heeded to my friends advice to try therapy once again.
This time I was ready to also accept what I'd done wrong that had
pushed my husband in the direction of an affair (it was an
emotional, rather than physical affair, but no less hurtful to
our marriage for that). I got an incredible therapist (you can
e-mail me at tirabazura@yahoo.com and I'll give you her address)
who literally saved our marriage. She was able to let me see
where I'd gone wrong, but she also helped my husband understand
how he'd fallen into that situation and how he could avoid it.
He also went for individual therapy (at her recommendation)
though he's not sure how useful that was.
What I would say to you is that if he is willing to work on the
marriage - go to therapy and do whatever it takes to save it -
then you should consider remaining in the marriage. Try therapy
and see where it takes you.
If he's not willing to do it, then I'd say ''leave''. Now, therapy
is not the magic answer. We went to therapy after the first time
I found out about his affair and he still continued in it (or
went back to her, I'm still not sure). I realize now that the
problem was that he hadn't actually owned that what he was doing
was wrong (because he didn't have intercourse with her, he was
able to fool himself into believing I was the one in he wrong).
Also, he wasn't really afraid I would leave (it took him
overhearing my conversation with my divorce lawyer to believe it
the last time).
Anyway, one and a half year later our marriage is much better.
At times I'm still afraid it's all a lie, but much of the time I
do trust him. Sometimes I feel it would have been easier if I
had left, but what I told myself then and I still tell myself is
that while it's not worth it to stay for my kid, it is worth it
to try to save the marriage for her.
anon
My situation is almost identical to yours, except six months
further along and the divorce will be final in a couple of
weeks. And our daughter is a couple years older.
Since our marriage had good points and bad points, I was willing
to put up with a lot, even possibly forgive him for the affair
if he would just admit to it. But he would not admit to it and
I decided it was, one, the lies that I could not forgive, and
two, that he had been doing family-type activities with someone
else and her kids while ! his kids own were literally begging to
spend time with him.
He solved the teenage step-son issue by sending him to live with
his grandmother out of state. I feel bad that my daughter
doesn't have her big brother around anymore, but they talk on
the phone. My soon-to-be ex and I do get along OK on some
levels and he is pretty available to our daughter, now that I
refuse to let him live with us. So she is probably seeing a
better relationship between her parents.
I feel better that, after many days that seemed hopeless and I
was hysterical, I am standing up for what I know is best for my
daughter and me. Being a single parent is a lot of work and it
takes a lot of organization and energy. It took some trial and
error to decide what was necessary to do and what was not. Good
Luck.
I am married to a man with a preteen daughter. We have been
together since she was a toddler and I believe that doing what is
right for you is what is right for your child(ren). My
stepdaughter is very well adapted to the situation as she really
knows no differently--we have lived as far as 3000 miles away
from her to now only 30 miles away--what she benfits from is the
fact that her parents are better parents to her apart than they
would have been together. It will be the older child that has the
problem, if any, having to experience your split at an older age.
And it is comendable to be concerned for her well-being as well.
My suggestion to you is a) move out and to where you have
support--that is key, if your family is in LA, than
there it is and b)it doesn't sound like your husband is that
concerned wit! h what happens to the children as he is putting his
needs first, not theirs or yours, for that matter. Do not stay
together for the children, it's been my experience that this
never works.
My husband and I also have a daughter and even though we only see
my step daughter once or twice a month (and we are only 30 miles
away!) she has excellent relationships with both her dad and her
sister. Remember it's about quality not quantity. Good luck
July 2003
I'm wondering about my marriage and if I'm doing the right thing
by staying with my husband. He's a hard worker and a great dad to
our 5 yr old daughter and 3 yr old son. He went into a cave for
the first two years of my son's life and so I finally filed for
divoce after a year of counseling (where he had multiple reasons
for wanting a divorce but wouldn't do anything about it).
He moved out for two weeks and then ''came to his senses'' and moved
back in. The divorce papers were never finalized. He actually
talks to me now have we have sex about 1/month. The kids even seem
happier. But our marriage is really so ''business like.'' We have
our routines, never yell at each other, our chores are split
evenly. But we have lost our love for each other, it seems. I
realized when he was in his cave how different we are. Rarely does
he look me in the eye, rarely do we have meaningful discussions,
and he's pretty uninterested in spending time with me alone. I
think it is inevitable that we will divorce at some point, and he
refuses to go to counseling again.
My current thought is to wait and see what happens when my little
guy is at least 5 years old. But without counseling and any real
intamacy, I fear we are doomed. What would you do in my situation?
By the way, my friends and family think he's gay.
I don't know enough about your situation to recommend whether
you should stay in your marriage, but I do have something to say
about people who stay in a marriage ''for the kids.'' I was the
child of a couple who stayed together because of their kids. My
parents had a loveless marriage that also had a lot of other
problems (like verbal abuse) that it sounds like you don't have.
Something I think people don't think about when they stay in
their marriage for their kids is that they are teaching their
kids what a marriage/relationship is/should be like. After
learning from my parents, I had a very hard time for years in
finding or accepting a healthy relationship. I basically didn't
know what a loving relationship looked like. So remember, you
are teaching your daughters what to expect from their husband
and vice versa. In retrospect, I would have benefited more from
the example of a strong mother who was brave enough to get out
of a wrong relationship than from the example of an unhappy
marriage.
anon
I suggest reading ''Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay'' by Mira
Kirshenbaum.
Anon
Hello, I am so sorry to hear of your pain. But please, if you
possibly can, read ''The Wonder of Boys'' before you make any
decisions. For your son. I wish you peace in your decision.
A fellow mom of a boy
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this unsettled position. I
wonder if you've directly talked about your situation and
options with your mate. What were his reasons for leaving, for
returning? What were your feelings before he left, while he
left and when he returned? What good is advise from others,
when you and your mate are the ones who know the situation best
and have to deal with the consequences of any decision? I say
that because I too have pondered divorce but discovered that
asking for opinions only made me realize how personal and
individual the decision is. It's much easier to make
judgements when you are removed from the situation and have no
emotional attachments.
Do you too think your spouse is gay but not yet able to
acknowledge it? Why do you think your children are happier now
than ever? Why do you think you'll end up divorcing anyway?
From my experience, the best advice is advice that asks you to
ask yourself hard questions.
good luck
I can't imagine being with/living with someone as a
husband/partner when I don't feel we love eachother for two more
years. I believe in couples therapy. I also believe in
individual therapy. If you can do both of these and work things
out, that's great. It may also help you see if things won't
work out. If my partner was unwilling to seek help from a
counselor and unwilling to address the issues at hand, I would
have a hard time staying. Especially b/c I think it's more
important for kids to see adults in healthy relationships, and
sometimes that means adults living apart but still sharing child
rearing duties. Take this with a grain of salt b/c only you can
know what needs to be done. Good luck!
anon
My parents were in an unhappy marriage for many, many years.
There was nothing ''wrong'' with the marriage (as my mom pointed
out to me once, my dad provided for the family; didn't drink;
didn't gamble; didn't hit her) except that they were unhappy and
didn't love each other. It took several years for my mom to
realize this was reason enough to leave him, and she did. This
was when I was a freshman in college and my brother a freshman
in high school. One night that summer when I was home from
college we were talking and she told me that she wished she had
left my dad years before, and the main reason for this was not
because she was so much happier now -- but because my brother
was. And it was true; I realized it immediately. Nobody had
noticed because it happened so gradually, I think, but my
brother had become a sullen, angry, slightly overweight kid. In
a word, unhappy. In just the few months since the separation,
he was more outgoing.... I have no doubt (and neither does my
mom) that this was a direct result of her leaving my dad and
taking my brother out of that unhappy home.
Please think of this as you are making your decision. Best
wishes - I know it is an excrutiatingly difficult choice.
anonymous, please
April 2003
I've been back and forth about separating from my husband but
worry about how it will affect our child. The biggest reason
for separating has to do with my husband's mood disorder
(bipolar, depression, hyperchondria and more) and his refusal to
help himself. Won't take medication or seek some alternative
treatment. Just finds some satsifaction in his misery and makes
life so difficult for me and our son. I have given up although
sometimes there is a glimmer of hope when he is having a good
moment (never a good day though.) I'd like to hear from those
divorced parents how their kids have faired. Seems like a no
brainer that if the relationship is not good it can't be doing
the child good but part of me feels it's so nice for a child to
have both father and mother in the household (and maybe
particularly a father if the child is a boy.)
anon
I want to say first of all that I'm really sorry that you're going
through this, and second that it's a tough decision to make,
and your decision to make, taking into account what is best
for your child. All I can do is tell you what I've gone through,
and of course I don't have time for the whole story.
I was in a very similar situation two years ago, and my
omotoa; feeling when my now ex-husband started to go
downhilll emotionally/psychologically was to try to keep the
family together for the kids' sake. However, after a cup was
thrown at my daughter by her dad, after he began to throw
and break the children's things in anger and run roaring and
screaming into our bedroom, threatening suicide, it began
to seem clear to me that the kids were not well served by
being around dad full-time. Now, I'm in a somewhat
uncomfortable joint-custody situation, but at least my kids
are more emotionally and physically safe and healthy, at
least during the days and times they're with me. My divorce
has been much, much happier for me and the children than
the marriage was.
anon
You'll obviously need to sort out all this yourself but I just
thought that I would give the prespective of a child of divorce
(s). A single parent raising a child can do it- is it harder
sure- but totally doable. My mom and I have an incrediably
close relationship as I do with all of my dads. The separation
of parents, I feel, is far less painful than either living in a
bad situation or having a bad divorce. Kids need good role
models not just a male and female model. Kids adjust, frankly,
faster than most adults do. So don't stay together for the kids-
you may have other compelling reasons to stay but I don't
think the kids should THE reason. The one piece of advice I
would give is to NOT bad mouth the spouse no matter what they
might be doing. This is damaging to the child who may feel in
some way that they are responsible for the parent's bad
behaviour and that it reflects on them because its their
parent. I think kids are happiest when their parents are happy,
when their environment is steady and loving and that can be
acheived in either a single parent home or a two parent home.
Good luck to you.
Juliette
I was in your situation 15 years ago. It's a hard time.
I made the decision to separate from my husband when he refused
to take medication and our lives became too erratic,
uncontrollable and unpredictable. I did not want to live like
that and I knew it was not good for the children.
However, even if you separate, you and your child will still be
dealing with your husband whether you are living with him or not.
There's custody and visitation and birthdays and holidays and
weekends and vacations, etc. which will all need to be negotiated
and then may or may not happen.
But the value of separation is that at least there is a place and
a parent that is predictable and available when the dad is not.
Separation will affect your child (sometimes positively,
sometimes negatively); having a bipolar dad affects him.
The result to date:
my ex-husband committed suicide 3 years ago
the older child is in college, incredibly bright, artistic,
sociable, and empathetic as he meets people with problems.
the younger child is in high school, 4.0 GPA and very athletic
with a wide circle of friends.
I'm remarried, finally financially secure. It took 5 years for
me to get to a place where I could consider remarriage and a good
10 years to recover.
I think I made the right decision. I could not have been as
good a mother to my children if I had stayed married. As it was,
they did not receive good mothering for several years, but it
was for a limited time.
I hope this is helpful. I had written 2 more paragraphs of
advice and ideas (but that wasn't what you asked!) so if you want
to contact me directly, please let the moderator know and she can
give you my email.
Out the other side
October 2003
My husband and I are thinking of separating/divorcing and we
have a 5 year old and a 2 year old that we plan to parent
jointly. I would appreciate any advice on how to start the
process, keeping what is best for the kids in the forefront
(even starting with the question, is there hope for a happier
couple and family life after divorce or is it better to stick it
out till the kids are older?) Specifically, I'd like resources
on how to find a mediator (what is his/her role exactly? do I
need a lawyer instead in case things get mean?), how to find
affordable rental housing near my current residence (how do we
pay for 2 households that the kids will feel good being at?),
and how to best tell and help the kids (is Kids' Turn useful?
how do we know what kind of parenting agreement is best?). As
you can tell, I am at a loss as to how to approach all the
considerations of this sad situation and I really do not know
anyone who is separated/divorced at this stage of life. Any
words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hello. I would like to respond to your post as a child of divorce. I am an adult
now, and have very strong feelings about divorce. First I would say that above
all happy parents make happy children. Do not stay in a situation that makes
you not be the best people you can be for the sake of the children - it doesn't
work. Your children will in time understand that you have made the best
decision for them and for you. With that said, my strongest piece of advice is to
NEVER speak badly about the other parent. Respect and keep the parent/child
relationship sacred - no matter what happens between the two of you. My
mother still 25 years later refuses to say anything bad about my father - even
though he is a challenging person to love. She made a promise to herself to
support us through our relationship with him and she has kept that promise. It
means a great deal to my sister and me. Divorce is something that stays with
you - understand that and help your children to deal with it throughout this
process and beyond. It is one of the things that happens to you in life - it's
how you choose to deal with it and learn from it that makes the difference. And
as the parents of small children how you deal with it now will shape how they
deal with it in the future. It is hard enough to deal with the kid aspect of it -
keep them far away from the adult parts - it makes you grow up too fast -
keep the childhood innocence in tact as long as you can. I wish you all the best
of luck.
Megan
It sounds like so far, you two are getting along better than
some divorcing couples. My partner has been going through one
of the nastiest divorces I have ever heard of (6 years since
separation and the house-sale proceeds still have not been
settled....). First, I would say that as a child of divorced
parents and now as a step-parent, I whole-heartedly stand behind
divorce if the parents truly cannot make a happy house-hold. I
am VERY glad that my parents did not stay together and I know
that my partner would be a shell of a man if he had stayed in
his previous marriage. That said, you have to determine if it
is the best course since it takes a rare couple to keep things
civil after the separation begins. All kinds of things crop up
(I have sat in court listening to couples argue over who gets
which photos of the dog - probably paying each attorney $200-300
an hour). I certainly do not intend to criticize you or your
spouse, but you never know someone until you divorce them.
So, that said, I would recommend that you first try to make
agreements on visitation with the kids, then on finances (the
most troublesome issue for divorcing people). See how the
negotiating goes before calling in outside help - I think a
total of $100,000 has been spent on my partner's divorce between
the two of them and his ex hasn't been paying attorney's fees
for the past 2 or 3 years. Personally, I would not put anything
in writing unless you add the caveat that it is not an
agreement, but a work in process until you are satisfied. I
would also consult a lawyer as a back-up for two reasons: things
may get mean, and you two probably won't realize all the details
involved in separating the two households (who gets to use the
kids as a deduction, who gets to order school pics, who gets
Christmas/Thanksgiving/Hannukah/etc?).
There is a GREAT book that we have (and would have liked to use
more in dealing with his ex) called ''How to Avoid the Divorce
from Hell'' by M. Sue Talia. It was recommended to us by the
financial arbitrator/consultant that analyzed their house monies
and credits/reimbursements.
As far as discussing things with the kids.... I really have no
idea. My partner separated from his ex when their daughter was
a few weeks old. My parents split when I was 5. We have had a
much easier experience with step-parenting than many of the
other step-moms I know simply because my step-daughter has never
known her father without me (I do not have the ''interloper''
title). In that sense, it can be easier to separate earlier
rather than later. Kids are pretty resilient and as long as
both parents can cooperate, then the situation can be beneficial
to everyone.
I wish you lots of luck. Keep your eyes wide-open and don't be
surprised by anything - both good and bad.
anon
Excellent mediation & referral services available at the
Berkeley Dispute Resolution Service: http://www.bdrs.org
peter
Start by contacting your county's family court. In Contra Costa
County it is required that all parents (married or not needing a
separation agreement) attend a mediation orientation. My
husband and I learned so much from the orientation; we are now
working much harder to resolve the issues that caused our
separation.
anon
I don't know all the gory details of course, but my initial
thoughts were that your very questions should be key in deciding
whether to divorce or not. Do the benefits of divorcing outweigh
the expense of keeping two homes, the grief of your children,
the scheduling hassles, the huge pressure of you being a single
mom, etc. etc.? I mean, is it possible to sacrifice some
personal ''happiness'' or desire for excitment or romance for the
good of the entire family? I know that sounds a lot like
telling you to consider ''staying together for the kids,'' but is
there some other, creative or open way to consider making the
arrangement work for the good of the whole? Just a thought, from
someone who's been there herself. Good luck
Been there, didn't do it.
I divorced about 7 years ago. Then my daughter was almost 5. We
had gone to couselling for several years and realized that it just
wasn't going to work. We didn't want to set examples of unhappy
parents in an unhappy marraige for our daughter. We then went to a
mediator to help us with a seperation agreement. We were both on
the same page concerning our daughter, we didn't want her to be
without one of us and both were trying to keep her interests at
the forefront (though, as you can imagine, that was hard at
times!). I would recommend a woman named Nancy Foster at the
Northern California Mediation Center in Corte Madera in Marin. I
don't know if she is still there, but I thought she was fair and
really kept us on track. We went about 4 times. We ended up using
that agreement as the official divorce agreement and changed not a
word even though the lawyer we hired to make it legal was itching
to rewrite it. We had to insist that it not be changed! I'm not
sure if you need to hire a lawyer if you have your agreement and
it is an amicable seperation. I think the court will go over what
child support is for either of the parents. We did that in
mediation also.
We also went to Kids Turn. My ex didn't want to go the first time
around. Then within the year our daughter asked to go again. He
went with her the second time. We both got a lot out of it and so
did our daughter apparently, the fact that she wanted to go again!
I'm making it sound easy, but it wasn't. The emotional part was
very difficult, but luckily neither of us wanted or needed a big
fight in court, etc. We had very little ''property'' so those
weren't issues for us. Money was tricky at times and was probably
the hardest part to talk about (still is for that matter!), but
that could be individual.
Good Luck! You need to go into survival mode for a lot of this
stuff (moving, et al.), but eventually you will be settled and can
relax into your new life.
anon
I'm so sorry to hear that your marriage is possibly falling
apart. I am divorced and have children your age. I would be
happy to share my experiences with mediation, lawyers,
court etc. as I have gone through it all. It depends a lot on
your own situation what might work best, but can tell you
what I know. Feel free to contact me by e-mail.
ym
First I am sorry to hear about you and your husband are thinking
about divorcing. I am currently at the tailend of one myself
(1.5 years later). I would recommend this private child custody
mediator in Downtown Oakland, Jacqueline Karkazis @ 510-452-
2034. You should definitely consult an attorney. Even if
things don't get ''mean'', at least you'd know where you stand. I
would recommend Greg Silva @ 510-865-7350. You need to be
honest with the attorney about your financial situation perhaps
he can give you a better picture than what you are invisioning.
Lastly, I hope you and your husband have gone through couples
counseling before you make any decisions on divorce. Please try
all other avenues before splitting. At least you can't say you
didn't try hard in staying together.
M
It's been a while since the original post, but I wanted to respond to this
query... thinking about divorce is such a big step, and emotions can run wild.
A few resources which helped me think more clearly might be of use to you as
well. I spoke with other women who had recently gone thru divorce. This was a
tremendous support, and also gave me the chance to hear what issues might
require extra thoughtfulness. It is important to really see that you can
survive the transition, even tho it looms large and complex.
I went to visit the Nolo Press bookshop and spent a good chunk of an afternoon
looking thru their books on divorce, joint parenting, finances, etc. I bought
the books I thought most comprehensive... others I checked out from the
library.
Also: Should I Stay or Should I Go? by Lee Raffel, M.S.W. and Too Good to
Leave Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum were both great at articulating the
ambivalence, and suggesting tools to find one's own clarity.
I began work with a great local therapist (Carol Jenkins) to take a closer
look at my fears and my hopes about marriage/life/ speaking out. I also did
some research... For example, when I read about mediators, I then spoke to
several to get an idea of the path ahead. I spoke to a child psychologist
about my concerns (I have a young child) and when we were about to physically
separate my husband and I met with her to discuss how we would talk to our son
about the divorce.
All of this was extremely helpful to me. All things considered our family is
doing well, six months post-separation. I understand the enormity of your
decision and would be happy to share my resources/books with you at any time.
Best of luck to you! dearsooz
January 2003
My husband and I have been going to couples therapy for a few
months and we decided its time to split up for a variety of
reasons, but in a nutshell he has tried to cut me off from my
friends and family, and completely failed to support me
emotionally.
The whole time we have been together I have always been the sole
wage earner and supported him financially, even before I got
pregnant and had our now one year old. After the baby was born,
he has been the primary caregiver while I work two jobs to
support us. I asked him if he would stick around the area if we
split up and the baby stayed with me and he said probably not,
so this would involve finding care for the child and paying
someone to do it, which I'm willing to do. But, at our therapy
session, the therapist suggested that I move out of our
apartment, find my own place to live and pay him what I would
pay a child care provider so that he can continue living in our
place and taking care of the child while I work. This just
doesn't feel right, although I do see that from the perspective
of the child, it would provide the least disruption and allow a
continued relationship with the father, to the extent that that
is a good thing. But first of all, even the most expensive
daycare wouldn't cost as much as rent and expenses of the
apartment. Second, I am still nursing, and I don't want to wean
the baby just because we are splitting up. But perhaps more
importantly, I think I would be very resentful continuing to
support him.
Am I being selfish to not want to move out and give up custody?
I think I have always felt taken advantage of by him and I don't
want the act of splitting up to be one more chance for him to
take advantage of my generosity. I have tried to assess whether
I would feel differently if I were in his position and I was
sahm and he was the wage earner, but I really think the
situation is not comparable, because if that were the case I
think I would just want exactly the same situation I want now--
to have custody, find child care, and work a job(s) to support
me and the child. Help! I don't know how to think about this,
and I really feel betrayed by the therapist.
anonymous
OK, so your husband has a long history of manipulation, trying to
cut you off from family and friends, being nonsupportive both
finacially and emotionally--all classic signs of an abusive
relationship. If you let him have custody, while you continue to
work, rent a separate apartment, and support him financially,
you're essentially ceding him all the power in your
relationship. I would think that once he has physical control of
your child that he will become even more manipulative and will use
your child's welfare as a control over you.
Your therapist was so off base on this one that I shudder to think
what other advice he/she has given you and others. A leopard
doesn't change it's spots and neither will your husband. Move out
with your child, start divorce preceedings so that one day you can
cut this looser off for good, find good childcare, and start
building a better life. You deserve it and so does your kid.
anon
You do not have to do ANY thing your therapist suggests. I
would just try to keep in mind that anything your therapist
suggests is just that, a *suggestion.* Only YOU can know
what is right for you. Any therapist that tries to say that he or
she knows what is best for you is probably incompetent and
should be avoided--not that your therapist is saying this, I
don't know about that. At any rate, I think you should go with
your instincts. Your child is only one year old, so separating
from your husband will not be so traumatic for her - it's not
as if she will be permanently, irreperably damaged by it. It
would be a different matter if she were four or five, but at one
-year, she will recover quickly. Besides, how commited can
your husband be if he's really willing to leave if you don't
continue to support him? (Although, that just sounds like an
attempt at blackmail, to keep you from withdrawing your
financial support).
I say, move on with your life. I think this therapist is
suggesting an alternative that may ultimately require you to
perpetuate what sounds like a co-dependent (or, at least,
*dependent*) relationship, so I am stunned that this
therapist would suggest such a thing. I think it is very
irresponsible. Let this guy support himself for a change.
Best of luck!
~Alesia
DON'T MOVE OUT!! I'm not a lawyer, but the way I understand how custody
matters are decided in California, if the mother moves out, leaving the
father with primary custody, it is construed as abandonment, even if you
come back every few hours to nurse (however, dad moving out is business
as usual and doesn't affect custody; why is that?). If you and your
husband had an amicable relationship and breakup, custody might not be an
issue, but you say this isn't the case. Some therapists do better work
than others; maybe you found one that is not helpful or is just
uninformed. You have better choices available to you. What you need to
do right away is see a lawyer.
Louise
Two things struck me as I read your letter. The first is that
your husband's decision to (potentially) move away should you
divorce is HIS decision and he should not have to be ''bribed''
(by having you support him and pay for his rent) to remain close
to your daughter and maintain a relationship with her. He can
also make the decision to stay in the area and make a living on
his own. Second, it is interesting that your therapist seems to
have missed a major issue for you, that is that you feel
resentful, unsupported and taken advantage of by your husband.
In fact, her suggestion (and it is only a suggestion, not law)
that you move out and continue to support your husband so that
he can remain near and care for your daughter, is exacerbating
the issues you already have with your husband. I suggest that
you discuss these feelings with her and let her know that you
feel betrayed and upset. Also, go with your instincts and what
you feel is right for you and your daughter and if this feels
wrong, don't do it.
Good luck
My husband and I have done some couples counseling in the past
and one thing I have learned about therapy is that no matter how
much we try to convey the exact situation to the therapist, and
no matter how good the therapist is, s/he will never understand
the whole picture. Your situation is just that, your situation,
and no amount of training will allow a therapist to be able to
understand your situation better than you do. All this to say
that you should not let therapy or therapists cause you to
distrust your instinct. You are in the situation, and your gut
feelings are legitimate. It sounds like your husband has
enjoyed a certain amount of a free ride on you, and if you are
intent on ending your relationship, you should do so
completely. Granted you have a child together and this probably
will not be the end of your relationship with him, but short of
a court ordered maintenance arrangement, you should promptly end
your support of this man. The cost of child care is nowhere
near the emotional cost that you would incur if you were to take
your therapist's advice. Obey your instincts and do what you
think is best for you and your child. You should be relieved to
be getting out of your situation. Best of luck.
anon
You should definitely seek out the advice of an attorney.
Because you have been supporting your husband (I don't know how
long you've been married) you could find yourself in a
situation, regardless if he's taking care of your child or not,
of continuing to support him financially until he get on his
feet or some pre-determined time frame based on years of
marriage and his skill set. This may be on top of what you
would still have to pay a care giver.
So you really need the advice of a lawyer to determine which of
the two arrangements would be cheapest for you and which one
your husband, who may also seek legal advice, would be willing
to accept. You may also want the lawyer to draw up a spousal
support (not the legal term) agreement to cover living
arrangement agreement and compensation for child care until you
are divorced if you go this route.
I'm sorry you're going through this and wish you much luck.
kim
WOW. Please, always remember that no matter how much training a
therapist has, they are a human like us and can have a agenda or
personal issue get in the middle of things like this! I find
this to be NOT AT ALL OK. Recently, I was having trouble with
my teen daughter hitting me and pushing me and screaming, you
get the picture. I finally had to put her in school, she is
homeschooled as a last resort (the school is really the closest
to being home, thank the world for that) and then I called in a
therapist desperate for intervention and a once a month
moderator after intiatil issues were resovled to help us
struggle through all this. It started because I asked her dad to
move out due to a long, long hard road that ended one night in
his raging and screaming and some mild voilence. After meeting
me twice, the dad once and the daughter once, the therapist
decided that the daughter did not need therapy and they we
together didn't need therapy either!!!! My daughter who was
angry that she had to go and deal with this took it to the
bank. The therapist said she just wasn't comfortable making my
daughter go when my daughter said she did not believe in
therapists and didn't want to come!!!!! She is just turned 13.
I was so outraged I started to cry. The therapist looked at me
and asked, in front of teen, if I was willing to Make Her Come.
I looked at her and instead of losing it entirely I walked out.
Never would I recomend this woman who is by the way on the list
of recomended therapists here in this newsletter and I am unsure
if I will ever trust another one. Go with your gut here.
anon
You raised a lot of important wuestions in your post, I just
wanted to address one, which is your interest in maintaining a
nursing relationship with your daughter during the separation.
There is a family law attorney who is well-regarded for her work
with couples going thru separations or divorce who are trying to
keep the nursing relationship going. Her name is Elizabeth
Baldwin and she is based in Florida but does phone consults and
may travel. Her website is:
http://www.compromisesolutions.com/ENB_desc.html
I have heard her speak at conferences and she says that in most
courts, the rights of the father will come ahead of those of the
nursing infant. Because of this, she recommends that her clients
work with a mediator to come up with a visitation and custody
plan that allows the infant to maintain relationships with both
parents but does not compromise nursing. That typically means
daily time with the non-nursing parent, but no overnights until
the child is weaned or old enough to handle a night without
nursing,
Best wishes working thru this difficult situation,
Jen
The suggestion that you move out and support him sounds
rediculous to me. It's your place!! You are a breastfeeding
mom! I think you should get a new therapist who will really look
out for your best interests. If your x-husband is not commited
enouph to stick around the area to ensure that he has a
relationship with his child, let him go. There are alot of
great childcare providers. Sounds like he is just looking for a
free ride. Being a single mom of a child is hard, but being a
single mom of a child and a grown man is harder and
aggrivating. I was there. I am so glad not to be there
anymore. Me and my girl are doing great.
a single mom
Please get a new therapist who can focus on your needs and your
child's needs ASAP. What your current therapist is suggesting
may lead a judge to believe that you left your child and could
lead to a your husband being awarded full custody and alimony.
How about letting your husband move out, find a job and support
you staying home? It's your turn to stay home and bond with your
child, besides which, you are breastfeeding. He isn't.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
anon
The fact that your husband has said that he probably will not stay in the
area makes me wonder if he has a vested interest in your child. I would say
that it would be better for you to put your child in day care or find another
caregiver than to displace yourself and wean your baby. I'm sure it would
be difficult, but not as difficult as feeling that you are being taken
advantage of.
LK
Let me say first off that I recommend you trust your instincts.
I would also feel betrayed by a therapist who recommends that
only one of you (you)is responsible for shouldering all the
burden, disruption and expense entailed in splitting up, while
the other (your husband) apparently sits back and continues to
share none of it. That unbalanced dynamic seems to be a key
element of the problem in your marriage.
Some of the elements in this situation sound a bit confused as
you present them, however, so let me try to sort through what I
read. You say the therapist suggested that you move out of the
apt., find your own place to live and pay your husband for the
child care he provides. This is not the same as suggesting you
give up custody and pay all your husband's living expenses. It
sounds to me like it means the child would still spend days with
his father in the same apt. as he always has, but the child
would go home with you (to a new place) in the evenings and,
presumably, for the weekends, etc. I don't necessarily agree
you should be the one who moves, though. Your husband could
find his own place and come to your apt. daily to provide the
child care. If your husband is not able to live on what you'd
pay him for the child care, and doesn't find a way to make it
work, (caring for another child at the same time?) he may decide
to leave the area. So be it. He will have had a real chance to
behave like a responsible partner, adult and father, and instead
showed you (once again?)that he's not up to the challenge.
I don't see any reason why you should continue to be the one
shouldering all the burdens involved with making this change or
maintaining the status quo. If the father is only interested in
sticking around and being involved with his child as long as
you're willing to support him, and he won't try to be more of a
partner, even at the risk of losing you both, well, who can
blame you for wanting to separate?
I don't see anything at all wrong with what you say at the end
of your message about what you want now.
Best wishes to you
If you would like to email me, I would be happy to share advice
I have read or tell you about some similar situations and how
they worked out.
It doesn't seem to be fair. I would think that he should be the
one to move out specially if you have no family or friends to go
to. (does he?)I would consult a lawyer before you move or do
anything. If you have been working and he has not, I would worry
about him wanting even more out of you. Your therapist may be
suggesting this since you are already working 2 jobs. If you
moved out you might have some space to think about what you
could do. But I wouldn't pay him for childcare. Especially if he
is not contributing towards his own rent and you have to go out
and
rent an apartment and still pay all the other bills.
turtlesrus
What a difficult and painful situation. It sounds as though 1)
your instincts are very trustworthy; 2) the most important
thing to do is to take care of yourself and your baby and 3)
that would mean the difficult but necessary task of letting
your husband begin to fend for himself; 4) this might mean
staying in your home and having your husband be the one to move
out and 5) your therapist has indeed acted very
inappropriately, more like an agent of your husband's interests
than an impartial and mutually supportive sounding-board (just
that the fact that the therapist is actually coaching one of
you on specific actions is very problematic rather than leaving
this important decision up to the two of you). I just find it
outlandish that anyone - let alone a therapist - would suggest
that you move out and pay your husband to stay home with your
baby. You and your baby's interests should be protected and
maintaining your irreplaceable bond with your infant should be
paramount.
If I were in your shoes, I'd too want to see my very selfish
husband move out, leaving me with primary custody, and
contributing financially to the support of our child while I
continued to do the same.
It might be useful to find a new therapist, all your own, who
can help support you during this difficult chapter. You and
your baby deserve a less biased and much more balanced and
supportive arbiter in this decision.
Thanks for sharing your concerns with the digest community and
best of luck with this process. I hope everything works out in
a way that is most harmonious for all while still best for you
and your baby.
Best wishes.
Please don't move out! Trust your self and do what is best for
you and your child. Your husband is a grown up and should start
taking responsibility for himself (in my humble opinion!).
Whatever you decide re: custody, I highly recommend you consult
with an attorney before you put any formal custody agreement in
place- it could be hard to change down the road if need be (I'm
a family law attorney).
I also suggest finding another therapist who is solely there to
support you in doing what is best for you. I think the current
therapist's idea is ridiculous! (sorry, but your post really hit
a nerve). There are MANY bad therapists out there and this one
is pushing you to do something you clearly don't want to do
which I feel is unethical. It would be different if you were a
family unit, living together and he was a stay-at-home dad,
because then you are sharing the burden of chosing to live on
one income. But this is different.
I hope this didn't come off as too preachy- I wish you the best!
anon
Your post is unclear in several respects. If you husband is the
primary caregiver, and continues to be the primary caregiver,
why would you have to give up breastfeeding if you split? And
what does paying him to take care of the baby have to do with
the cost to keep up the apartment?
At any rate, I think the therapist is trying to help you end the
relationship gracefully. If this guy has free room and board,
you will not be able to pry him outta there. You will have to
leave the apartment. If you offer to pay him to take care of the
baby, this will look generous. It is his problem if that is not
enough money to live on. I suspect that he has no interest in
nanny wages or the baby, and even if he agrees to take care of
the baby he will not do so for long. He will likely find
another woman to sponge off of. Sorry to be so harsh, but that
is the way I see it.
anon
Wow. I don't usually post responses to queries unless I have
direct same personal experience, but I had to type on this one.
1) Get a new therapist if you are understanding them correctly.
Perhaps the therapist is only suggesting you pay your husband
what you would pay a caregiver to help him offset his new
separate expenses??? Like an hourly wage based on local
standards? I hope this is only what was meant. 2) I have a dear
friend who just broke up with a long term partner (but does not
have children) who took advantage of her financially for several
years, despite the fact that he was able bodied and capable
professionally and that it put extreme financial strain on her
to singlehandedly support them in the style he expected.
Granted, there was no ongoing child relationship to consider,
but imagine her surprise when in parting he levelled the
criticism at her on the way out that she made his
irresponsibility and self esteem even worse by facillitating his
dependency for those years (and the therapist agreed on that
one.) Not only should you not leave your home and child to a
person who is obviously less responsible than you are, but what
kind of example and message will you be sending to your child if
you ''reward'' the flakiness of your soon to be Ex by
relinquishing your home to him, and financially sanctioning his
lack of willingness to step up to the plate and assume both
responsibility for himself and as a parent? Not to mention your
child may feel you are abandoning them!
By the way this advice comes from a former executive now a sahm,
whose husband has risen to the occasion to support our family,
and who would not hesitate to return to work if it was putting
stress on him and our family.
Best of luck in this difficult situation,
Cheryl
It sounds crazy to support him and pay him, too. Especially
since his response doesn't sound very interested in the child.
What about him getting a job and helping to support you and the
kid? I think you need to find a new therapist right away that
doesn't make you feel betrayed. Talk to other single mothers.
For example, Neighborhood Parents Network has a single moms
support group. (Ellen, 528-2797) Maybe somebody there can also
recommend an attorney or mediator that you would be happier
with. Good Luck!
Sympathetic Mom
Posts like this, from spouses that seek advice about painful
separation issues, do open the floodgates of response. As a
witness to several separations, I (and many other observers)
consistently find significant distortion, or dramatic self-
serving, in the accounts of separating spouses. These stories
are hard to ''decipher'' even when you're familiar with the
person, their spouse, and have interpersonal cues like body
language for help. An email account has none of these
advantages, so is even more susceptible to distortion.
Good people who undergo relationship trauma will use any media,
including a post, to alleviate pain by projecting a manipulative
defense. I know I would be capable of it. But for casual readers
to launch in and effectively validate this one-sided version of
reality is troubling. This is especially the case when
responders contradict professional advice, of which this post is
not unique. Indeed, by now a regular reader of this page can
expect an array of self-confirming responses from such a post.
What better way for separating spouses to confirm their distrust
in a lawyer, mediator, or therapist then have it reflected from
a dozen literate voices. But very few separations are ''one-
sided'' - of which professionals are well aware. Inevitably, a
competent professional will diffuse a situation with reality-
checks that are resisted from both sides. In our rather self-
oriented society, this is already hard for parties to accept. So
I'm not sure that a spontaneous reaction to an unverified and
potentially distorted post serves the interests of the
traumatized family.
Perhaps, at least, it is best when responders note their own
marital background and experience, so our inevitably biased
perspectives become a little more obvious. For example, I am in
a long-term marriage that's overcome ebbs and flows, usually
through the mutual assimilation of conflict responsibility. So
perhaps I am biased towards a conflict-resolution approach,
whereas a divorced person might be more attuned to pain
avoidance.
Brian
Alas, I couldn't offer any advice or help. But I do feel
compelled to respond to Brian's recent posting.
Of course couples often distort the truth and seek revenge
during the course of separating. And of course it isn't fair of
us to offer support based on only one side of the story.
Unfortunately, many things are unfair.
Regardless of how things came about, my heart goes out to this
woman because in the midst of potentially biased information,
the following (rather unfair) facts emerge quite clearly:
(1) The consequences of separation tend to fall harder on women
with children. Mothers must create a secure environment even
when they grieve and their own lives are falling apart; (2)
Motherhood can be physically and emotionally exhausting even
*with* emotional and financial support. This particular mother
has neither of those; and (3) If a therapist makes the client
feel betrayed, the therapist did something wrong. A good
therapist should understand and respect their clients' emotional
issues and boundaries sufficiently to facilitate growth and
awareness of unpleasant truths, etc. without making the client
feel betrayed.
I don't think that someone would post a message to half of the
East Bay concerning such intensely personal matters unless they
felt sincerely overwhelmed, isolated and in need of outside
perspectives from a caring and knowledgeable community. Which is
perfectly reasonable, since we all signed up to be part of such
a community.
I appreciate your call for greater objectivity, Brian. We all
should definitely consider the issues you raise. However, I also
strongly believe that sometimes empathy - and hence
subjectivity - is the most appropriate thing.
Elisabeth
I am the original poster and I wanted to respond to Brian's
thoughtful comments. Indeed, posting in this forum allows one
to present a situation totally subjectively and using selective
facts to describe one's position. My purpose in posting was
specifically to strip away some of the details of my situation
so that I could look at it from an outside perspective and try
to get feedback from uninvolved parties, given the admittedly
selective and biased information that I presented. As he
rightly says ''What better way for separating spouses to confirm
their distrust in a lawyer, mediator, or therapist then have it
reflected from a dozen literate voices''. I fully admit that
that is what I was explicitly looking for.
Yet not only did I get validation of my instincts (and there is
nothing wrong with being told to trust one's instincts), but at
the same time I received a lot of valuable perspectives on my
stripped-away situation. I think Brian underestimates me and
others who post seeking advice on difficult emotional and/or
relationship issues when he says ''I'm not sure that a
spontaneous reaction to an unverified and potentially distorted
post serves the interests of the traumatized family.'' I am
perfectly capable of seeing the spontaneous/emotional reactions
to my situation for where they may come from and what
perspective they are likely to be representing, and I know that
my post was distorted and unverified...how could it not be?!! I
also think he underestimates those who responded...of course
they know that I haven't presented all the facts and that things
may be distorted. They are not being asked to judge the verity
of the information, but to respond given the admittedly limited
information with which they were presented.
In giving their advice, people helped me understand the
limitations of the therapist/therapy situation. Yes, some
people were more vehement than others, but I found very helpful
those who pointed out that maybe I hadn't made some of my issues
clear and that the therapist is privy only to a finite amount of
information from which to suggest resolutions and guide action
(hmmm, not unlike this forum!). Yes, people ''contradicted
professional advice'', but they backed up their contradictions
with reasoned explanations and suggestions that I could then
assimilate and use as I deemed appropriate. That was the point
of soliciting advice in this forum!!
Finally, I will say that while Brian is correct that I am
possibly trying ''to alleviate pain by projecting a manipulative
defense'', this is not occurring in a vacuum. Of course I know
that my (soon to be ex-) spouse has many good qualities and even
that I am also guilty of some manipulation. I respect that
Brian's marriage has overcome conflict in a way that mine has
not, and that the same things that I may call manipulation he
may have a more gentle term for. Nonetheless, if I *feel*
manipulated, then I am, and part of extricating from this
difficult relationship has been recognizing that for what it is,
what it can do to a person and a family, and when it can be
changed and when it can't.
That said, let me just say how grateful I am to be part of this
community and thank you all for sharing your thoughtful
perspectives and experiences.
still remaining anonymous
To Brian, If she feels ''betrayed'' by her therapist, then, even
the therapist will probably agree she should seek a new one. I
didn't tell her to give up therapy, but to find one she is
comfortable working with. I have been married for 10 years, and
never divorced, since you wondered. I like to see couples work
things out whenever possible. I still want to send that mom a
hug.
Anon
I am responding to follow-up post that discussed how distorted a
one sided version of seperation can be. I respect that
completely, but would also like to say that therapists are
people, and as such, can respond to their own mental feelings
and bias in their recommendations. I have had personal
experience with therapists who have objectively looked at a
situation and given good advice, and I have seen others that
give poor advice.
e
August 2002
I am interested to hear how people make the decision
to split up. Do you just "know" when it's too broke
to fix? I've been with my husband for 4 years. Our
relationship is characterised by ugly escalations. A
year into our relationship, I said "couples counseling
or it's over" because I was so upset by his raging,
and we have been going ever since. Although it has
really saved us thus far, for the past 6 months or so
I've been feeling increasingly hopeless about ever
getting my needs met.
The typical pattern: I express a need, he ''defends''
against it with accusation, blaming, raised voice, and
it unravels from there. He gets incredibly ugly and
mean - he is obviously fighting for his life and while
on some level I feel compassion, I am sick of the lack
of accountability for inappropriate, acting-out type
behavior. I'm also very worried about how this
behavior affects our 8-month old.
He's been getting treatment for clinical depression
(meds and therapy) for the last 4+ months. I'm mildly
codependent and focusing alot on how my stuff plays a
part in it (reading books, therapy, Coda). We have
both worked very hard but I am not feeling safer or
more secure in our connection; if anything my trust in
him is eroding. Lately he has been secretive about
things, which doesn't help... he's an addictive type.
A lot of this obviously goes back to childhood, and
knowing how unloving his was, I wonder if there is any
hope. Do people with that degree of damage in their
pasts truly heal, and if so, what does it take? And
if anyone has been in a parallel situation and got
divorced, what's your take on that, looking back?
Thank you very much if you read this far and I
appreciate any advice from those who have been in
similar situations.
I can't advise whether or not to split, but I can say that I
have two children and found the first year (first nine months,
actually) of the babies' lives to be very challenging to our
marriage. We found that the babies demanded so much of our time
and attention, that we barely had time for ourselves, never mind
for each other (and certainly not for things like kindness,
thoughtfulness, accommodation, etc.). The situation changed
quite a bit when the kids hit nine months and started sleeping
through the night and generally being more independent. Since
your baby is just 8 months, you may give it a couple of months
before making any serious adjustments.
Anon
>
I got out. My only regret is that I waited 2 years to do it. I don't
believe that people filled with rage and blame will change
so long as there is an available target. Only when they find
themselves alone do they reconsider their choices.
I am now happily remarried to my perfect partner. Our 8th
anniversary is coming up, and I feel just as delighted to be
with him as I did the day we met.
When I run into my ex, I can't believe I was ever married to
such a loser. It's incredible to me how he could wreck a
perfectly a good day.
Loser-free
As I read your post I actually wondered if you were married to my
ex. I feel for you and I know how exhausting it is to stay in a
relationship that takes more out of you than it gives in return.
Years ago I was riding on a bus and feeling really horrible about
myself because of a relationship that only got worse despite all
the energy I put into saving it. I suddenly found myself
evesdropping on two women who were discussing relationship
problems. One of them said something that hit me like a bolt of
lightning with its truth and simplicity. She said, ''You know, you
don't HAVE to work anything out. You can just bail.'' This piece
of random advice from a total stranger was exactly what I needed
to hear. It occured to me that more energy I wasted on this
relationship, the more I convinced myself that I had to make it
work. It's true that being in love has nothing to do having a
successful relationship. When I did finally break up with him, it
was like quitting an addiction. Only you can tell when it's time
to bail. It was one of the most difficult things I ever did, and
you can do it too. Hopefully you'll find that when you spend your
energy on your self and your baby, you get so much more in
return. Good luck.
anon
Your post made me cry. My own experience is that marriages go
through good parts and awfully rough parts. For it to work there
has to be some binding, unifying element. (And I don't mean
having a child together.) The big worry in this situation is the
child. At 8 months, you don't have much time before escalating
hostilities could cement in some terrible damage to his/her basic
psychological underpinnings. It sounds as if the two adults are
so deeply conjoined in the mess that it's tough to untangle the
habits and the mistrust. If you don't trust him (and that sounds
like a pretty logical conclusion from your description), and the
main component of the relationship is this tension and
unhappiness, it might be a good idea to frame some sort of planned
limited separation, just so both of you can figure out who you are
again without the other one playing the other side of the court.
I know it was the case with my first marriage. When we separated,
I was shocked at how little I missed him, and, actually, how much
of me I did miss. And he was a sweet guy. It just wasn't right.
Do you have a support system? A group of women and/or men with
whom you feel your inner feelings are safe and in perspective? Do
you have your own private therapist? This is a crisis. Insurance
has been known to cover such crises, if the cost is a problem.
Gut level reaction on my part is that I don't like the sound of
the whole marriage. But that isn't fair,of course. I wish we
could talk, but the public forum is not a place for further
revelations.
Tobie
I was in a similar situation and did divorce because it was too
much for me. I felt that my husband should have confronted and
healed those issues before starting a family with me. I didn't
want my children raised around that type of environment. And
most of all, I wanted some peace and stability.
In restrospect, I sometimes feel like I ''wimped out'', that I
should have stayed by his side, that I failed my marriage,
etc. We have a pretty good relationship now but I still see
that side of him, not necessarily directed at me, but sometimes
I do and then I am reminded of why I left. I am still close to
his family and we raise our children together so he is still
important to me. I feel like I can still be there for him in a
different household but he still hasn't faced that he has a
serious problem and I have yet to see him get help for it. I
don't know if it's bipolar, depression or what, but the
characteristics you described were the same for my husband.
It is a hard decision and I don't advocate for divorce, but the
way I came to my decision was to think of what would make me
the happiest and that was enjoying a life that I would be
completely at joy and peace; and that was sadly without him.
anonymous
I just read the book, The Myth of Sanity, by Stout. It addresses the
many levels of dissociation that we all use, from daydreaming to
dissociative identity disorder (DID). Your patterns REALLY ring a
bell, especially linking to the history of childhood trauma, and I
think this book could be v. useful for both of you to read - it's a
pretty quick read. On a positive note, the author does find many
people heal from even the worst situations with the right insight and
counseling. In my marriage, we found that while couples counseling is
v. helpful, the real work and solutions to our problems come from us
doing individual therapy, each working on own self to heal/grow enough
to better participate in the marriage. Good luck to you.
-Anonymous
Nothing is Hopeless,
As long as you are breathing there is still hope. You will not
find the complete answer in counseling or in books or magazines
the answers are in the Word of God.
The Word of God is a life manuel that tells you exactly how to
conduct yourself right here right now, it's just up to you to
decide, it your choice on if you really want to find out how to
have a sucessful marriage that flourishes and grows in peace and
joy and above all else Love.
I have been married for 10 years now and have seen miracles
right before my eyes in regards to changes in my own marriage.
The whole 10 years has not been peachy keen but the last 4 has
been OUTSTANDING! For a good exposure into what Gods' promises
are for your life and marriage, you and your family are welcome
to come to New(it's time for something new) Light Christian
Center on the Corner of Parker St. and MLK right here in
Berkeley, the street address is 1841 Parker St. Bible Study is
on Tueaday and Thursday Evenings at 7:30 p.m. and Sunday service
at 11:00. Come out and build yourselves up on the Word of God it
is a Life Saver!
Anita
I came into my marriage with alot of rage and depresion. I had
been in counseling for years from some heavy duty child abuse.
I would often lash out at my husband (verbally) and go into
rages. Ultimately, we went to couple's therapy and the
therapist said point blank that my abusive behavior was
unacceptable. I went on anti-depressents which helped alot. I
also had to do a lot of work in therapy and learn how to manage
my anger and heal my past. My husband also learned how to stand
up for himself and set boundaries. We have gone through a lot,
but ultimately decided we brought out the best in each other,
not the worst.
I would adivse you to talk to the therapist about seting limits,
determining certain types of behavior as strictly not okay (for
us, it was not calling each other names, and me not throwing
things). It is possible that your husband needs to be on
different meds (although it can take a while for any meds to
kick in). It is also possible that you are in a domestic
violence situation, and that he will be abusive regardless of
his treatment. I would talk to the therapist about his behavior
to see if this might be a possibility. If he exhibits signs of
a batterer, then he needs treatment for that as well. Some of
these signs include controlling behavior, extreme jealously,
putting you down or criticizing you clothes, cooking, etc.
Please talk to the therapist or someone, because the ''ugly''
raging you describe could escalate and you might get hurt. I
hope this helps and does not add to your confusion.
Best of luck.
anon.
I was very struck by this posting ''Hopeless in my Marriage.'' The
responses that I saw were about how to stay together, but you seem
to be asking the question how to decide not to stay together. I
am currently separated and am divorcing my husband of nearly nine
years. We have a 3-year old. Your description of your
relationship sounds almost identical to my own. I commend you on
how clearly you seem to understand the situation from a
psychological standpoint. It wasn't until I had a similar
understanding about my relationship with my husband that I began
to make the decisions and set the stage for what is now an
amicable breakup. I can hardly believe it myself. Even a year ago
I wouldn't have been comfortable with the decision to divorce and
even refused to discuss it in concrete terms with my husband.
Both of us were reluctant to admit it.
I made the decision to divorce my husband after therapy with a
wonderful and supportive person. I actually went into therapy
with the idea that I was not doing what I wanted in life - nothing
was really working for me - and I needed to understand my own
value system. I was confused and unclear as to how to proceed.
Through therapy and some very wonderful discussions with my best
friend, I began to identify what kind of life and relationship I
needed. [For some this may sound trivial, but for me it was a
first.] In the beginning, I would express my needs and he would
react as your husband did, (i.e., defensive, angry, blaming, rude,
cruel, mean, and very loud - he was so unreasonable). My husband
had anger issues and continually raged in the house, yet was not
very communicative. [Many of our fights were about lack of
communications]. He also treated my friends rudely. His anger
created so much chaos in the house. I felt that my husband
disregarded my son's happiness and wellbeing by uncontrolled
outbursts.
I also studied the Bible with a Christian friend who is very
knowledgeable on the Christian viewpoint. She helped me sort out
the idea of responsibilities in a relationship and in a marriage.
The Bible seems to be very sensible about what responsibilities
adults have to each other and their children in a marriage, such
as, kindness, support, leadership, love, tenderness, flexibility,
open-heartedness, forgiveness, among others. Since I wasn't in a
relationship that fostered these ideals, it seemed then I had to
try to find out what the problem was. So, I decided to start with
myself, instead of just blaming my husband.
In therapy, I began to realize that our frustration for each other
was borne out of the very different needs that we had. It took
some very delicate discussions with my husband to let him hear me
out, and understand that I was miserable in the marriage. I had
already decided by then that there were too many behaviors (both
his and my reaction to them) that were stressful and distasteful
to me for our marriage to work. Nearly nine years of proof told
me that he wasn't going to change his very negative ways. But it
was really my standing my ground and changing my own behavior that
demonstrated to me that my husband wasn't going to change. In one
of our delicate conversations, we had been discussing our needs as
individuals and our expectations out of the marriage, when all the
pieces came together. It seemed that he too was frustrated by our
lack of compatibility, among other issues. Finally, I told him
that I didn't want to remain in the marriage (still wasn't using
the ''d'' word), and he agreed. It was only a couple of weeks later
that we separated.
Now that we are separated, and are preparing our divorce, it seems
that he is still the same angry person. Though, we talk more than
ever, and we both feel free from the disappointment of our
marriage. We really wanted to minimize the damage we have already
done to our son from our poor relationship and the chaos in the
house. We have collaborated to the best of both of our abilities
to make the transition a very productive and loving experience for
our son. I am hopeful for a peaceful and happy future with my ex-
husband remaining a positive part of my life through my son.
At the end of this story, I guess I can't exactly say what were
the criteria, except owning my own happiness (i.e., what were my
needs and then pursuing them in a positive way) that made the
decision unfold. I also realized that I couldn't have made the
decision any sooner, because I just wasn't 'there' yet, so to
speak. I only had the information and ability to process it
recently. I might have been able to do it earlier on, but I
wasn't ready somehow. A great person once said to me ''things are
exactly as they should be.'' I realized, in this process of
divorce, that I really needed to learn something from my marriage,
and I did. Then I could move on.
If your husband is like my husband, however, it may be very
difficult to get the kind interaction that allows for ''unfolding''
to occur, and then as a result, to have any resolution with your
husband. I image that our divorce would be a lot more contentious
if we didn't take the time to talk about our needs. I strongly
recommend that you evaluate what your needs are, in whatever way
is best for you, and begin to look for that in your life. I
suppose we should all be doing that, but for confusing
relationships that may mean putting an extra effort toward that
goal. For me, my son's happiness and wellbeing, great(!) friends,
paying my bills, and tranquility in my home are foremost. After
that, it's all icing.
anonymous
I wanted to thank the person who posted Hopeless in My
Marriage. Even though I am a happily married woman with 2
children, I was impressed and moved by the woman's clear
thinking and well written description of what happened to her
marriage. Everything she said was right on the nose, from the
talking about one's needs with their spouse before things get
bad, the Christian viewpoint on loving relationships, and her
making a stand and changing her behavior first. Congratulations
on 'getting healthy' emotionally, and thank you for sharing your
personal-growth experience. I love this network.
anon
May 2002
I am feeling desparate to get out of my marriage. We've
been married going on 11 years and I have brought up
wanting a divorce many times. He refuses to go. And since
I have a son (his stepson), lots of animals, tools of my trade
that require a lot of storage space and zero financial
flexibility, i.e. no savings and no means of saving, and tons
of bills (including credit card bills), I feel that it would be
much easier for him to go than for me. (We rent.) But he
won't; he says if I want a divorce, I should go, then he forgets
we ever had the conversation and can't understand why I'm
not affectionate! It's driving me nuts. I admit that I got myself
into this mess and not being able to get out of it makes me
feel so desparate sometimes that I think the only way out is
to leave the planet (especially when ''pms''ing and now
entering perimenopause). It feels like a very slow death.
Being 50 also feels limiting as far as my options are
concerned (20 or 30 years ago, it would have been easy for
me to go). I can't afford a therapist right now; have been to a
few who really didn't help me fundamentally with my
problems (not specifically this issue). Has anyone been in
the same boat? What in the world did you do? I have no
family nor friends to turn to - pretty pathetic. He is a good
man having done a lot for my son and me, but passionless
with no libido, not adventuresome and not interested in a
circle of friends. The shared interests we have are his own
interests he brought to the marriage; very few of the ones I
brought. Help!
I would suggest getting some kind of support system in
place before you try to get out. It's very difficult to do such a
transition without people to help you. I got out of a marriage
about 8 years ago, and I have never regretted it for one
instant even though it was the hardest thing I have ever
done. But I would not have been able to do it without the
support system I developed.
When I first began to be unhappy, I had only one close
friend and really no outside interests. What did I do? I joined
a therapy group, much cheaper than one-on-one ($100/mo.
at that time), loads of support, and one woman from that
group is now my best friend. I also joined a folk dancing
group and got to know people there. You say you have a
trade. Reach out to others involved in it. You have to stop
putting all your eggs in one basket. I found that, although I
couldn't rely on one person for everything, I could rely on
several friends for many things.
I know I did a lot of thinking about how can I get my husband
to move out, how I am going to work out this and that, and it
seemed like it was productive, but in retrospect, I see that it
wasn't. It was me procrastinating and not wanting to face a
lot of hard stuff. He was just as mean to me as I had always
been afraid of when I finally told him seriously that I wanted
a divorce, but when I had got to that point, I found that things
did work out. But if you aren't clear with yourself first about
why you're in a situation with a man who isn't compatible,
you have few financial resources, and no family or friends to
turn to, I'm afraid you'll find that this situation continues or
another similar one pops up. The therapy I did helped me
get that clear. It can be expensive, but it can be cheaper
psychically than having your energy sucked away by a
crummy life situation. The therapist I used was Pete Walker
in Lafayette. He also supervises interns who are much
cheaper ($25/hr?). But there are lots of therapists and
groups out there. Make sure you find one that is non-
blaming and non-judgmental. You don't need someone
telling you you're not ok. You are.
anonymous
I was in a similar situation a few years ago when I was about 40. Not
a terrible marriage but just a discouraging one that was gradually
getting worse every year. I felt like I was slowly sinking. I didn't
realize at the time it was a bad marriage - I thought there was
something wrong with me, so I never thought of splitting up, and
anyway I was terrified to go off on my own ... I went back to school,
met some interesting people, and realized that I could have a happy
life instead of a sad one, and this gave me the strength to take
action. I did go to a marriage counselor at my husband's request but
it was clear I wasn't interested in staying with him, so she told me
that I should move out, the sooner the better. That was a shock. I was
expecting him to move out, not me, and certainly not right away. I
had even been looking for apartments for him. But the therapist had a
point - the breakup was my idea, so I should be the one to leave. I
moved into my sister's living room some miles away. There was no room
for my kids to stay overnight; it was so awful to be separated from
them. I didn't have a car - we only had one car and my husband kept it
because he had the kids and they were in school - so I couldn't get
over to see them more than a few times a week. After a while I moved
into a communal house where my kids could live too, had a new
boyfriend whom I married a few years later. It was a very very
difficult time for me, hard for my husband, hard for the kids. I'm
sure I would not have done it if I hadn't had a new relationship
giving me hope for better times. Things did get better, and things
continue to get better and better every year in my new marriage. I am
so glad that I did take that action. But it was a difficult one to
take, and not one that I would lightly recommend. But if you have no
hope it will get better, then I would recommend looking for a
houseshare, and moving out with your son. Maybe you have to leave the
animals behind. Maybe you have to rent storage space for your
stuff. But your husband has no motivation to move out so I think you
are going to have to be the one to take the action. I wish you luck
and hope you can find some ''inspiration'' for making the change.
Anonymous
It sounds to me like you're trying to find a scape goat for your
unhappiness. Face it - you are depressed! Don't make your
husband, your lack of finances, or anything keep you from being
yourself and enjoying the things you're entitled to. I don't
know if you need to leave your husband to do this, he may
surprise you by supporting your decision to change. It's worth a
try to incorporate some of your desires into your life and see
how it goes with him. You're being classically passive by
blaming everything and everyone around you for what's wrong with
YOU! Get some therapy, possibly antidepressants. If you dig
around a little, I'm sure there are low-cost alternatives for
therapy, or, can you use your husband's benefits? Act now, get
happy!
anon
I have not been in your position before, but my sense is that
for your own well being and that of your son do whatever it
takes to get out of your marraige. Whether this means going to
a women's shelter or taking a step down in accomodations, you
need to leave and go through with the divorce. You may not feel
that there any friends to turn to now, but they are just waiting
to be discovered. Seek them out, members of support groups or
shelters. My parents divorced when I was very young (6) but I
know the impact that conflict brings to a child. Removing the
conflict will bring more stability to your son's life and your
own. You may not realize it but your son knows and senses your
internal conflicts and unhappiness. In the short run the divorce
may seem daunting, but keep the long run in mind and you can
make it. Good luck.
quinlan
DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE. Your son loves you and needs you, whatever
his age. As long as he is around, you have at least that one
compelling reason to live. Do not leave him.
As far as solving your problems, my advice may not be the most
popular, but I think it is the most practical: Learn to live with
what you've got. Highlight the positive, downplay the negative,
and begin to slowly build up the resources, independence, and
support networks that you need -- and by the way, you need them
even if your marriage is fantastic.
Here are my specific suggestions, in order of importance:
Depression -- Ok, so how do you make it through the day? Therapy
is great, but VERY expensive. There are some low-cost options,
but still. ...
I recommend that you talk to your doctor and try some medication.
Even just to help you through for a short period of time. I say
that not because I like think drugs can solve a problem (I
DON'T), but because it may simply be the quickest, cheapest way
for you to get immediate help -- if you have health insurance
that covers it. I've tried some of them and they helped --
although I didn't like the side effects, which is why I wouldn't
take that stuff long-term.
Another and possibly better option is over-the-counter stuff,
natural and otherwise, that you can buy at the store. Depending
on your health plan, this may not be cheaper. (I use these pills
called ''Calms'', made by a company called Hylands. They work
better for me than Zoloft or Effexor, the Rx drugs my doc had me
try. Lots of people say that St. John's Wort helps; I don't
know.) Could menopause be contributing to your difficult
feelings? I bet yes. Again, talk to the doc. Pills could help.
Support -- You said you don't have any. Find some. Join a reading
club, a sewing circle, a jogging or walking or hiking group, the
Sierra Club, a political group. Get involved with some
organization and start forming relationships and looking for
like-minded people that whom you like. We all need people, and
women in particular need other women to talk to. It may be hard
in the beginning, but it will really pay off in the long term.
Finances -- Is there another job you can do that would earn more
money? Can you consolidate and begin to pay off your credit
cards? Try to be frugal, and find help. There are lots of
organizations set up to help people in debt.
Your relationship/Sex -- You said yourself that he's a good man.
That's enough, isn't it? I mean, count yourself lucky already. If
you're not having good sex, buy yourself a vibrator and develop
an elaborate fantasy life. As far as your husband being
passionless and not wanting a circle of friends; he just sounds
like a traditional guy to me. Lots of men are like that. That is
why you need to make some women friends -- your problem is that
you are just expecting too much from one person.
Don't wreak havoc on the lives of the only three people that you
have any connection to (your son, yourself, and your husband)
because you want better sex, more adventure, and more affection.
You can do those things on your own, separately. As it is, you
have a good home, a secure future, enough to eat, and a decent
life, which is more than 80 percent of the people on this planet
have.
IF ALL ELSE FAILS -- Just remember that women typically live
longer than men by a substantial number of years. Eat carefully,
excercise a little, and you'll probably just outlive him.
hoping to help
If the situation is as you say, the one thing you can do to
remove your husband from the picture is to get a restraining
order against him. I know it sounds drastic, but you've already
stated there is a problem and he refuses to leave. You would
need to file for divorce and get the restraining order at the
same time to show just cause. A court order will make him leave.
He will need a police escort to come back and collect his things.
You didn't say if the place you live in was yours or his first or
if you moved in jointly.
It doesn't sound like you have a very good relationship and the
longer you put it off the harder it is going to be to get him
out. You need to think of your son and yourself and do whats
right for the both of you. One other thought, you didn't say if
joint counseling had come up or would help the situation.
I would use the restraining order as a last resort. I have
friends who have used it quite effectively. These woman were
housewives their entire married lives and their husbands
basically told them they weren't getting anything if they walked
out the door, so they got the restraining orders and the husbands
got the boot. Either way, you need to consult a lawyer. I believe
this site has some references you could look through for advice
on finding one. This site also has support groups for women in
your situation. Get into one. They don't cost anything and you'll
be amazed at how much better you'll feel knowing you're not the
only one.
anon
I have been in your situation before and I sympathize very much
so I must point out a couple of things for you to think about.
You are basing you logic and your request on a very self-centered
(not in a bad way) point of view. In your opinion it is easier
for him to move out. But it is only easier for you. He does not
want to move out. Staying is easier for him. You are asking him
to put himself out (literally) to make your life easier, when he
seems content with things the way they are. He doesn't seem to
believe you really mean it either.
This man is not mistreating you. He is not interested in what you
are interested in and you are not leading the life you want to
lead. Because of him?
Let me suggest the following:Make a list of what it is that you
want. Friends? A social life? More interesting activities? A
passionate relationship?
Make a list of what you don't want.
Proceed to get what you want regardless of his interest in it. Do
it without him. Go out. Socialize. Get interested in your own
interests.
End the realtionship. (I did this though he did not leave. I
expected him to move into the spare bedroom - after all my
bedroom had been my bedroom before he came along - but he refused
and I ended up moving into the spare bedroom).
Begin to structure and build your new life. Eat separately if you
want, go out, etc.
Take care of the unhappiness in your life and realize that unless
he is directly causing it, it will still be there when he's gone.
The point of doing these things is twofold. 1. You will be
searching for what you want to do, be etc. 2. He may believe you
are serious about ending the relationship (right now he obviously
does not believe you).
In my situation, my husband eventually left. He could not afford
to keep our house, I could. If I had left, he would have had to
leave anyway. But what made the difference was that I started to
live my own life. I became happier even while he was there
(though it was not easy having him there - he was somewhat
verbally abusive). He would not leave, but eventually he realized
that I was moving on anyway, that I was serious about it and he
left. It took about four months.
Good luck
Anon
GEE WHIZ!!!! Wait a minute! The most key element in divorce is
money. Money issues can last a liftime, while, with due work,
grief, anger, bewilderment can be worked through in less than a
lifetime. You sound broke. Can you earn a living? Can you
earn a living that will allow you to remain in the bay area and
live with some aplitude? 50 years is the beginning of delight.
However, without work of real meaning and real monetary reward
what do you have to allow you to remain here in well being?
You sound miserable. However rotten he is, you need to find out
who YOU ARE and get yourself together on your own road. Maybe
then you can reacclimate to each other or you can go on alone in
your own glory!
anonymous for a reason!
Hello ; I understand you so very much in all the situations you're having
right now; one of the things that had helped me is start working ;going out
with some friends and speaking up my problems; I was feeling very bad ,my
ex-husband was very violent and deal with domestic violence ;I know there
are groups you can go and talk about your problem; please feel free to
contact me I'm almost your age 510- 540-5638 Denise
Thank you for all the (mostly) very caring messages in
response to my situation. Even the ones that were a swift
kick in the butt were helpful. It's very interesting to get
perspectives outside of the tunnel vision that one
sometimes has. I have to agree that it's time for me to get a
life. Thanks very much!!! Love these lists!
December 2002
My mother was recently visiting and over the course of several
days she and my husband pushed each others' buttons, and
seemed to constantly bait each other to try to incite argument.
And argument hardly describes the torrent of anger that they
unleashed on each other..the visit ended with her telling my
husband that she would be happy if she never saw him again, and
her trying to convince me that I needed to kick him out
immediately. Well, I was almost convinced, but he is not going
so easily. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, (I
should say there are other problems with our relationship besides
just that he doesn't get along with my mother).
What I need help with is trying to figure out what to do! My
mother is going to be upset that I haven't taken her advice about
getting him to leave, and yet I don't feel ready to end the
relationship. He is a good father to our child, but not the best
partner as far as relationships go. It hurt me so much to see
him treating my mother so horribly, but if I step back I can see
that she was treating him horribly too, and they were really just
reacting to each other. We are going to try to get couples
counseling, but any advice with regard to how to deal with my
mother, and how to deal with him would be greatly appreciated.
anonymous
Excuse me for being blunt, but I think your mom needs to stay
out of your marriage. It's unfortunate that your husband and
mother don't have a compatible relationship but that is separate
from your relationship with your husband. You didn't say much
about your marriage except that you were going to start
counseling. I'm making an assumption that you have some big
issues in your marriage that need repair. I hope the counseling
helps you both decide if this is a marriage worth saving or if
it's best to end it, but that has to be yours and your husbands
decision, definately not your mothers.
If you and your mother are very close and attatched to each
other it may be hard to stand up to her and tell her to keep her
nose out of it, but again, your marriage is not your mothers
business. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, your letter made a strong
impression on me. Good luck.
anon
This sounds very difficult and painful and you have my
sympathies. The question to ask is, while it's clear you're not
completely delighted with your husband, would you leave him if
she had no opinion, or for that matter was favorable to him? If
you divorce, it will be you and your child who will take the
consequences, not your mother. Yes, your mother will be upset
if you don't take her advice, but a divorce causes a huge amount
of upset for many people, in particular for the children. Since
you say that he's a good father, it seems to me that your child
would be the big loser if you take your mother's advice. Good
luck, this won't be easy.
Jim
I have a similar situation in my family. My sister doesn't get along
with her daughter's husband. They are both difficult people, and they
rub each other the wrong way. He is a good father in terms of working
consistently and being present and involved with the children, but I have
seen him do some things to my niece and the children that are borderline
abusive. This is what upsets my sister; and my niece's husband is angry
at what he sees as an interfering mother-in-law. They don't say any of
this directly, they bait each other with political stuff and other side
issues, and there have been big blowups.
My advice for you is to take a hard look at this marriage. You say that
it hasn't been a good relationship, even though he is a "good father" to
your child. In what ways isn't it a good relationship? How will that
affect your child and what s/he learns about love and family? How do
your friends and other family members react to him? Is there a reliable
friend you can talk confidentially with?
I have to say your mother and your husband were both out of line to let
their feelings run away with them. I am wondering what deeper issue(s)
lie underneath the ostensible cause of the argument.
Regardless, it's unreasonable of your mother to demand you kick him out.
You don't have to justify staying in the marriage to anyone. Try vague
responses ("We're